Org chart, organization, and political influencers w/ CS Leadership Office Hours
Speaker 1: Welcome to Gain Grow Retain podcast.
David: We've just started planning a trip. Normally every two years, I've got my wife and I, and two other couples, we go on a cruise somewhere around the world. But we don't feel comfortable doing that this year so we're staying put in the United States, and we're going to go to Yellowstone National Park, Grand Teton and Park City. So if anybody has been to those places and knows some must- do things there, reach out to me, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, because we've not been to any of those locations yet. And I just put something in the chat regarding customer org charts. I've used... Salesforce was my CRM, and I was looking for an overlay to CRM to start some strategic account planning for enterprise customers, and I found a package called Altify. And Altify has a great module in it for developing your white space for upsells, and cross- sells, and things like that. But it has some wonderful relationship mapping modules in there that really enable you to build out a great customer org chart. Who intersects with who? Who are the influencers? Who are the decision- makers? What part of the political role they play in their company? Really some good stuff, if you're looking for customer org charts.
Andreas: Very cool. Thank you. Haven't heard of that one, but that's what the community is for and about. Can you share anything, David, about what you do then with this information? How are you dealing with the people that are not your friends, in the org chart, but have huge political influence?
David: Absolutely. So the first thing that I used it for, at my last company, was to be able to create a customer org chart. I was building an executive engagement model, so I wanted to see where the gaps were between my team and my company and my customers teams. So I created the customer org chart, and then we took our org chart and overlaid the two next to each other so we could see who was responsible for keeping up with who, and where the gaps were. And then as we had a need, we looked to see... so let's say, Bertel, because he had a reputation of kicking people out of break rooms. He was a guy that we didn't like and he didn't make good decisions... so we would look to see who influenced him, we would build a better relationship with that person, and then that person would help us build that relationship with Bertel. And that's typically how we would use it.
Andreas: Okay. Thank you. Very good.
Andreas: Appreciate it. So, Rebecca, you raised your hands as well. And other people, come on, step up. Even if you haven't spoken in your groups, now is the chance.
Rebecca Nerad: I'm Rebecca Nerad, Vice President of Customer Success at E2open. Glad to be here again. And, from the travel side, if anybody has particular recommendations on Norway and Sweden by water, I'll take them. We can talk about that offline. But to dig in on the org chart piece, I guess there are a couple things that come to mind. First, there are some great tools that integrate naturally into something like Salesforce, which I've been lucky enough to use in the past. And I don't want to talk about specific tools so much as the process around it, like who maintains it and who's responsible for it? At my company, we segment our customers. We have two very separate segments. So for the small and medium business, or the growth segment, we have a single person who's responsible for sales, renewals; kind of everything. And that person owns the org chart. Kind of the strategy on how to integrate to an account. But, more commonly, most of our customers fall into actually more of a strategic and an enterprise segment where we have a CSM and an account director, the salesperson responsible. And for those accounts, it's actually, not just initially, but always, at our company, that the salesperson is responsible for that org chart, the maintenance of that. But it's collaborative between the CSM and the salesperson on: how are we targeting it? Who's covering what relationships? Who's stronger here? How are we going to build out and understand the rest of the organization? I would say it's a strategic plan on who covers that, even though the owner is the salesperson in this case. Because there's a lot of overlap with... the amount of revenue for these strategic customers, it just makes sense to have a consistent sales and CSM involvement. But the reminder that I would suggest to everyone, when it comes to this, it's not just creating, having a good tool. Can I actually put together the org chart in a place where that's not too complicated? Can I share it? Like I said, if it's integrated into something like Salesforce, that's great. But, more importantly, it's also keeping it updated because that's where we fail. There'll be some big project that says," Hey everybody, go and update your org charts." And they do it, and months and months pass. And even when we know that a stakeholder changes at the customer, did we go update the chart? Unless we actually use them and continue to keep them living, I think that's where we kind of stumble. If we don't have that conversation to work on how we develop our relationships.
Andreas: Yes. And you stole my question thunder there. Because I was about to ask you: it's all good on paper, but how are people actually inaudible it? And so, thanks for also sharing those challenges with everyone, that people don't go to a inaudible into proposing such a relationship. Much appreciate it. Marcus, you raised your hands as well. Thank you. So, take it away.
Marcus: Yeah. Mine's going to be pretty quick, only because I do have a hard stop today, unfortunately. But, yeah, I wanted to give a shout- out to two of the tools that I've seen a lot of success with, which is in using Lucidchart, because they have some great integrations with Salesforce and LinkedIn. And what's nice is you can add additional context into these charts. I've seen some really good account or success plans kind of built into the chart. So as you're looking at the org chart and sharing it with anyone else, they can see all the background on the company. But, more recently, I've had the problem of being in organizations where no one has done, really, any account mapping. So you're coming in green, not knowing the accounts, needing to get up to speed very quickly. And Chartloop, which is a very young startup, has been great in the fact that they will auto map an account for you. They will go out... they basically use LinkedIn... and you plug in the company, the department, and the geography, and it'll come back and say: here's everyone we've identified and who they report to. And it makes your life a lot easier. I don't know if they auto update as of yet, but you are able to identify who's a champion or a detractor, and whoever else you might want to identify on there. And being that they're young, I see them hopefully continue to expand and add in a lot of the feature sets that we're looking for. So, I just wanted to have that out there.
Andreas: Okay. So that was Chartloop?
Marcus: Mm-hmm(affirmative). And I dropped it in the chat a little bit ago for everyone.
Andreas: Oh, perfect. Thank you.
Marcus: So I think the link should be in there.
Toni: Andreas, I have to take off. This is Toni. I wanted to add a quick comment that I think, in addition to mapping out the org chart, it's also really important to think about the kind of influence framework that's happening within an account as well. And sometimes that's a little bit harder to represent in a chart, or whatever. Not to put a plug out there for Gainsight, but I know that Gainsight had worked on building some of that stuff, is this sort of influence structure within the org chart. And I don't have any great solutions as far as how we're killing that here, but I do think that that's an important part of understanding, first, how the organization is structured and also how the influence is distributed.
Andreas: Yes. Which is something I wanted to ask Marcus about, because that's exactly... having an org chart to navigate is really only the first step. Then understanding how the people in the organization, wherever they are, can influence, positively and negatively, your adoption plans, your upsell, renewals, anything, everything. Right? That's where the next challenge comes along. And while I always personally challenge CSMs to find, other than some technical champions, also their political sensitivity, to see who else is around and what is happening in conversations that they're not participating in, and how to leverage the relationships that they have; to get introduced to other people, understand about their values, and so on and so forth. I know it's arduous, but it has been very beneficial in the past. So, thanks for bringing that up. Josh at Aqua Wave, you raised your hands as well. So you take it away next, please.
Josh: Sure. Actually, I just wanted to double down on what was just said, as well as what Rebecca had said, and add some context. So, to give everyone context for me, I'm co- founder of CloudSploit, a cloud security SaaS that we actually grew via customer success, rather than focusing on sales. And one of the points that I'm hearing, and I also want to add to, is the idea of the teamwork that goes between a sales effort, often top- down, and the abilities for the customer success manager to build consensus bottom- up. That is users going up for that land and expand strategy that I think we're all party to.
Josh: Exactly. So I look at this as the customer success manager's responsibility, in essence, to clear the landscape for that upsell. And hopefully, depending on the organization, cross- sell to other opportunities. So when we're talking about mapping the relationship, I think someone else had mentioned mapping the influence relationship, not necessarily the hierarchal relationship. And that is a context that I wanted to add into this, just to make the conversation harder.
Andreas: Well, yeah, definitely. And I hope you joined this week's session early enough to hear about next Cybersecurity Forum, and that's happening in February. So hopefully I'll see you there as well.
Josh: Yeah. I mean, if there's any other cybersecurity folks, I would love to connect with you. That's my niche, is customer success and cybersecurity, app sec, cloud sec, et cetera. I'll put my link in. That's enough for me.
Andreas: All righty. Well, send me an invite on LinkedIn and I'll make sure to extend a personalized invitation. Well Matt Vadala speaks up next. Hi, Matt. Good to see you.
Matt Vadala: Good to see you, Andreas. Happy to see you and Bertel running the helm today. Thanks for this. As I see, with everything, that org chart is a cross- collaborative effort. It's an individual and success team running with it. However, they're getting a lot of input from their account managers, from the sales team. And when you have that cross- collaboration, again, the thing that I continue to see fail, and I always, always love to impress upon people... different ways to think about this... is impressing that value. Why do I need you to go out and do this? But not only why do I need you, why does the organization need for you to do it? But, okay, maybe that's not enough? What's in it for you? And I think even Josh just brought it up. Thank you for your... nods there Josh, I love it. Like you just said, you have all those opportunities. You have the expand, you have the cross- sale, you have all these other things. Why are you even going to bother doing it? We do that for our customers and saying," Why we should even meet with them, they don't want to meet with us." But we have to impress a value to them as to why they should meet with us. The same we should be doing for our colleagues as well." I need your help with this, but why should you even bother taking time out of your day? You're not doing it just for me. There will be something in it for you." So a little bit can go a long way and hopefully we can all impress the benefit of that. But of course, I definitely would love to hear, from the group, any challenges that you've had with your colleagues and running into those things. Hopefully I've kicked off a good way to approach that.
Andreas: Well, thank you for stirring up the conversations here a little bit. So, Anastasia, hopefully, will also approach the topic of: when you talk about org chart and organization, and political influencers and detractors, and all this good kind of stuff, that sounds very major account- ish. And Jeff, I may call on your next... hint, hint, hint... because you have, what, 98, 000 customers? And I'm sure you cannot maintain an org chart for all of them. So pointing that out, and maybe Jeff and inaudible can share about is: what to do if you don't have the luxury? But before we get there, Anastasia, good to see you. And I'm curious what you have to contribute.
Anastasia: Hi guys. So I think the biggest challenge that I've always came about is why do we need to document? Why do we need to put notes in the account? Why all that? Excuse me. The real simple answer is that it helps you do your job. Because ultimately, sometimes a person either leaves the company, they could be out sick, they could be on vacation. And you get a call from a customer, you don't want to look like somebody who doesn't communicate cross- functionally within the company. You want to have all those notes for success. It's your roadmap of what's going on with that particular client, if it's an issue. Obviously, when the scale is much greater... like Jeff's 97,000 customers... it's a lot harder to do. But I think it's important to remember when you're on a call, when you're doing a product support, whatever it may be, it's always good to use that practice because it helps you do your job. That it may not be relevant day- to- day, but at some point it will become relevant, where you can look it up and see," Oh, hey, we had all this history of these calls and now we can help product steer in the right direction, or we can help support steer in the right direction." And we can actually make a bigger roadmap for the future to address all those common problems.
Andreas: Thank you. Exactly. And I appreciate Jeff for volunteering, before you get volun- told. So, the floor is yours.
Jeff: Well, I know how you work too Andreas, so I'll throw myself under the bus before it can be pushed. So yeah, I never thought my claim to fame would be 97,000, soon to be 100, 000 customers. So we have the very unsexy way of building that crossover org chart. And we just do it in handover notes in our CRM; which of course is Pipedrive. That's who I work for. That's what we do. We've also been broke. Reinvented Pipedrive to be our CS platform, because we could not find anything on the market... even after we purchased one and threw a lot of time into it... to get one to do something with the volumes that we have. So, that's the first thing. This is a whole nother separate conversation. But what we do with the customers, once they go from trial to pay, is that we enhance that with Clearbit data and a couple of other sources, and then that we build them...
Andreas: Jeff, are we losing you, or am I losing it?
Bertel: I think Jeff is either frozen...
Marcus: He froze.
Bertel: Always smiling. Always smiling. You never know when you're going to get an internet issue.
Boris: Can I can add a point while Jeff tries to unfreeze?
Andreas: Yes, absolutely.
Bertel: Go ahead, Boris.
Boris: I've used a tool called... the question around org chart for customers, I think there's two sides to it. Right?-
Jeff: crosstalk crosstalk, there's a whole different team outside of customer inaudible inaudible inaudible engage on inaudible inaudible and inaudible-
Andreas: Jeff, your internet connection is very bad. I'm muting you. Okay. Boris, please? crosstalk.
Boris: So the question around org chart has two sides to it. One is to map what it looks like, who has the right authority and issue, and essentially what are the personas we are dealing with? And the other one is track the level of relations, the level of engagement, how well we do things with them. These things need to go hand in hand.
Boris: Eventually... especially when you start to get into scale... it's critical to minimize the dependency on people updating data into the system because that doesn't scale and that makes everything extremely subjective. In the past, I've used a tool called Komiko. I believe they were purchased by someone. K- O- M- I- K- O. It's essentially a tool that sits on your email server and map the emails, coming in and going out between our people and customers, into Salesforce in the right way. And then you can report on it. So they had a couple of really fascinating graphs. For example, was one graph that two stack bars. One, our people. And the other one is the customer people. And who's talking to who and how much. And you could monitor by week, by month, by year, who's talking to whom and who's maintaining the level of relations. And can get into sophisticated reports about the trends and the correlation to renewal and expansion, et cetera, et cetera. For me, when I used it, it was a very effective way to create some scale without asking people to do anything. You sent an email to the customer, we logged it. You got an email back, we logged it. Et cetera, et cetera.
Andreas: Perfect. Thank you. Exactly. Like we heard before, it's all nice to write down these lofty ambitions and processes, and if nobody follows them along then it becomes very stale very, very quickly. So appreciate, also, the technology shout- out there. Bertel?
Bertel: Yes. I just wanted to add something that I keep coming across whenever I'm moving to a new role and asking for their handover, when it comes to the org chart. It sounds kind of 101, but often we see company making this mistake where... the business model of a SaaS platform is bottom- up, that means everyone's going to have access to their own profile without being centralized to an organization, or the recommendation to build the org chart out greater. But remember, one thing that when an employee is offboarding the company and moving on to a competitor or another industry, it's very important to centralize all of this data. And I'm speaking here directly to inaudible, to the leaders on the online today. Centralized data, spend the additional investment to centralize the data. Because again, we see that on the SaaS inaudible. For example, when everyone has their own license, when they stop paying, they pull the plug and the information is vanished. We lose the information. I just want to emphasize how important it is for the inaudible leaders on the call to centralize information and make it available when there is someone else, another customer success to join the team.
Andreas: Very good. Yes. Thank you. With the average lifespan of someone in customer success in 18 months, that internal churn is something that we have to account for as a priority measure, not just as a nice- to- have, on the lower 100 action items list. So, good comment there. Laurie, you raised your hands? And then hopefully I can pick on my friend Matt there, what he has to share about his time at SAP. And Boris now, in regards to org charts.
Laurie: Hi. Yes. So what I was going to say is that... and in the roles that I've had, whether I was in leadership or working as a CSM... that basically, when we had that internal kickoff call, or even through onboarding, we made sure that if sales was handing something off that it got handed off to the CSM. Because, to us, the CSM is the general manager of that account. So they want to make sure that anything that changes, that they are definitely in the know. So from that point on, in our daily standup calls, we would have Trello cards. And a Trello card would be assigned to whatever sprint ran, whatever we're working with; something would be assigned. So we would definitely make sure that that CSM... if that's who we chose to be in charge of that org chart... that they were following on their task. And, through the Trello, it sends an email to that person and they're held accountable for it. So it's really about the owner, or whoever management is giving it to, that that CSM is held accountable for what they need to stay on top of. So I really think it just comes down to accountability and making sure that, through sprints, whether we're doing lessons learned, sometimes that's come up; the org chart didn't get updated. So that was a lesson we learned in that sprint. So really just staying on task and accountability for everybody's role.
Andreas: Thank you so much, really, really appreciate it. Matt, any comments you want to share with your collective wisdom before I call on Jeremy?
Matt: Yeah. Hi Andreas. Yeah, thanks for waking me up there. So a couple of points, really. So I think, historically, and traditionally, for me, a lot of the org structures that we've inherited within to our CSM roles and teams, very much comes from the sales handoff. So you find that coming across from sales methodology, templates and structures... whether it is TAS, whether it is Miller Heiman, whether it's MEDDIC; whatever those sales methodologies are in place... you often inherit that org structure.
Matt: It's a good starting point, but often that is very much created with an end in mind: are you're trying to sell something? And we very rarely get to a situation where those are the same contacts that you want to manage proactively as the CSM assigned to the account. So you've got one problem there. I think there's also another potential problem, and that's a cultural or behavioral shift that's needed from CSMs. I think, traditionally, we still feel very comfortable being introduced to that one or two points of contact that we have. We build a great relationship with them. We think we've got a great relationship with them. But we're very comfortable with just those one or two contacts. You've really got to change the behaviors from your CSMs, where you're asking them to go wide and deep into your customer base. So minimizing the risk of those single points of contact. And that is a real behavioral shift. So, for me, this goes back to a comment... we had a conversation on this in one of the groups a few months back... where actually, you start looking at your CSMs having sales training. Not because you want them to become sales, but because you want them to have that behavior that comes traditionally from sales. So asking the questions. And how you navigate an organization by asking those traditional sales type questions. So the background is, I think, traditionally, we get very comfortable with the org structure passed to us, but actually we've got to take ourselves outside of our comfort zone to start asking questions, to navigate where else we want to build relationships or contacts within our customer base.
Andreas: Thank you. Definitely, like you pointed out, CSMs are not typically accustomed to do the same type of exploration within the organization that someone who is in sales. Which is something that is, of course, very much needed. I want to give a shout- out to Jeremy Dalton who is doing on- the- job training with his latest CSM. Looks like his daughter, so good to have both of you on the call. As we move on to Jeremy... Jeremy, take it away.
Jeremy Dalton: I think I've tended to be in organizations that didn't quite have product market fit, or two years out we would laugh at where we were thinking we had product market fit. And so I have a strategy that I've tried to use, and I'd be interested to see how it resonates or if other people do it. I don't know that it scales, and so it's a much different thing. I don't have 100,000 customers. But the idea is, we're all familiar with the customer journey and we're familiar with product roadmaps, and we start to graft on: where are people trying to get to? And I've taken to thinking of all the different contacts at a company as being these mini customer journeys and: where are they trying to get to? And so I would print out, or use Lucidchart, and say," This is the customer journey. This is what we're trying to do with the org. And then here are all the different people in the organization. And let's use the exact same template to show a customer journey. Where are they trying to get to?" And then you use that to the team: cross- functionally, how can we help this person get to the outcome that they're trying to achieve at the individual level? Are they trying to progress? What is the human motivation behind it? And it really helps bring in the rest of the cross- functional teams who want to come with solutions and be part of that threading- in relationship. And I've had good success with that. But again, it's been at the sort of high- touch rather than at scale. So I just wanted to offer that up as something that works really well to involve the rest of your colleagues, and how it's a team sport and raise issues of how we can help each other at the human level.
Andreas: Yeah, absolutely. And Boris is giving, already, a thumbs up, as well as does Emily and others. That expecting someone else... but not me... to do all this arduous work, is a good recipe for failure. Right? So if you have any type of intelligence... whether you're an engineer that got called into a customer situation, whether you're in support, whether you're in finance and you were dealing with some of the invoicing issues and hear something about anything... that there is this culture within your company to funnel this, at least, somewhere. You may not be the expert in modifying an org chart, but that you're like," I should let someone know about this." So highly appreciate this. And coming back to Matt's comment about the various sales methodologies. So I'll see if I can put this on our artifacts, because it is now a defined sales methodology, target account selling, and the templates around this. But what I liked about this one was that it had... well, it's so old that it's paper- based. And it had a section on one of the pages where you would draw that org chart and different type of icons about the role people are playing in regards to getting a sale done. And as a customer success, basically being that renewal sales that follow on in there, and everything. And so you have a good starting point, a good classification, not just to who reports to whom, but what are their roles in regards to the influence, the power that they have within the organization? Which is what you really, really want to know as well. So anyone have other morsels of wisdom to share? Or any travel destinations that they haven't put on the chat yet, which I will filter through, that involves water and boats, please raise your hands. Otherwise, I will continue calling out some folks that I haven't heard from in a while. Mr. Kevin, you have been awfully quiet. Come on, RingCentral must have something going on?
Kevin: A lot of the things that we're doing right now is just really having the conversations with our primary stakeholders. It's great to hear from everybody else right now, because we are looking for a lot of different strategies to be able to really dig deep into the org chart of our customers, especially with how we are trying to combat against a lot of our customers leaving for a new competitor into the market. So, happy to hear from you guys. That's why I haven't been really sounding out much because we're really at the beginning stages of those conversations. But our primary goal right now is to leverage the connections that we have that have been built through the sales process. And then also leveraging honest conversations that we have with our customers, asking them," If we were to move forward with different success plans that include adding additional products, what does that process look like?" So that way we are able to identify who the budget owner or the executive sponsors would be for these activities. And then we're able to start curating a response and a campaign aimed at those people.
Andreas: Very cool. I like that. Having a process about this so it's not just up to the individual CSM, but that there are organized playbooks, not just on an individual level, but across all accounts, that you run campaigns and do this in a way that me, as a math geek, can measure the efficacy of any of your plays that you're running, and can do some AB testing to make the organization and the processes, and everything in the greater scheme of things, more efficient. So calling out another friend of mine who I haven't heard from today. Yes, Sherry, I'm talking about you.
Sherry: I knew it.
Andreas: NH, hopefully, not for long, still challenging hospitality industry. How do you leverage org charts? And what are you doing to basically use this as an efficient tool, or not?
Sherry: I'll be honest, it is still a challenge for us and I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about it. But I do believe, as I'm sitting here listening to the conversation and reading some of the chats, it's really about being able to coach the team around it. One of the challenges we have, I think, is people are hesitant to talk to executives, and that is a big part of the org chart and those relationships. And I actually brought in a consultant about two years... so a year ago, in 2019... to help with that and how to have conversations with executives and that kind of stuff. It was helpful, but I'm going to throw myself under the bus here as the leader of the team, and I didn't really kind of follow through and enforce it. So I think where we are now is we've started... I've implemented account plans, which has an entire tab dedicated to an org chart, and what that looks like for our customer. And also there's a space for people that we don't know, but should. So it's helpful for account management, and even for the CSM, for kind of land and expand. Because, for us, account management sits with services, professional services. CS, and the account management, they don't sit with sales, so that's helpful for them. But it's getting people to remember to... like someone else mentioned... look at it and update it. So one of the things that I would like to do this year with the team, is find out: what do you need from me to be able to feel confident and empowered to talk to someone outside of... just instead of going from the bottom- up, from the top- down? How do you feel more empowered? How can I help you do that? And I also think, outside of training, is maybe there's some sort of, in a way, to kind of push the right behaviors. Is it smart to tie that to some aspect of your variable comp when you talk about high value activities? I don't know if anybody else does that? But can you tie... like a portion of our variable is not just our NRR, but his personal contribution. And if you tie that to certain high value activities, you're kind of striving some of the right behaviors at the same time. But in any case, we do need to do a better job at that than we have because we just get too stuck on the bottom- up people.
Andreas: Yes. Let me just finish the sentence. I think, Diana, you also wanted to add a comment in there? But not sounding like a broken record, but the operator excellence video with inaudible, and the meaningful relationships that we need to maintain and how to measure that and how to incentivize people, I think is a good best practice. So I shut up again. Diana?
Diana: Thank you. And I'm going to build up on what Sherry just mentioned, because the way we're trying to build the org chart right now with the CSMs... because they struggle with executive relationships... is, within the org chart, we're trying to identify the budget authority of each one of those stakeholders so that we don't lose sight and we don't waste a lot of time with the high executives when we can actually get to the next renewal or the next upsell with just are lower level stakeholder. So we are giving the CSM social relationships that our more senior crosstalk director, where I still have a budget authority to get us to the next level of upsell or cross- sell. So building that confidence based on: who do you need to talk to for next? is really helping the CSMs to navigate their way up to the change without me, as an account manager, jumping in into all the relationships. And that budget authority can help them with the variable pay. So if they actually achieve at renew, just with a director level, that's also helping them achieve their bonus, et cetera.
Andreas: Thank you so, so much for sharing. Appreciate it. We're almost at the end of our session here, so it is screenshot time. So everyone look awake, alert... including Matt... and smile. Thank you very much. And we're going on three, two, one, and here it goes. Thank you guys. I hope you have a wonderful and successful week. See you back, hopefully refreshed. In the meantime, go into the community, post your templates, look at the jobs, post the jobs, anything that you find, and look for the writeup and LinkedIn posts by Bertel and myself. Thank you so much for being vulnerable and sharing, not just the good, but the bad and the ugly and the struggles that you have with this. So that others, like myself, we're always eager to learn and don't have perfection, don't feel alone in this. So, take care, and bye- bye.
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This week we are focusing org chart, organization, and political influencers.
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