Customer Success Metrics w/ Ryanne Doumet

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This is a podcast episode titled, Customer Success Metrics w/ Ryanne Doumet. The summary for this episode is: <p>Today, Ryanne Doumet of PandaDoc, is here to talk with Jeff about metrics in customer success.</p><p><br></p><p>If you want to join the discussion with thousands of other customer success leaders, join Gain Grow Retain: <a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></p><p><br></p><p>This podcast is brought to you by Jay Nathan and Jeff Breunsbach...</p><p>Jay Nathan: <a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></p><p>Jeff Breunsbach: <a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></p>
Leading metrics that impact retention rates
02:16 MIN
Build decks in PandaDoc to help scale high value customer meetings
01:40 MIN
The power of tools and automation to make your work for efficient
02:00 MIN
Effective adoption metrics
01:45 MIN
Ownership and alignment with all departments
01:20 MIN

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Gain Grow Retain Podcast.

Jeff: Gain Grow Retain, you have Jeff here. Before we dive into the show today, we have some exciting news that we've been holding onto. As of this month, Gain Grow Retain is officially part of the HubSpot Podcast Network. And this becomes a really important milestone for our community and brings more validation to customer success. Something I love about the HubSpot Podcast Network is, all the inspiring shows dedicated to helping professionals learn, grow, and scale their businesses. If you love Gain Grow Retain and want to check out other shows like us, I'm a big fan of My First Million, iDigress, and The Salesmen. Check out all these shows and more at hubspot. com/ podcastnetwork. Welcome back to another episode of Gain Grow Retain. So for today, I've got Ryanne Doumet, who is the Team Lead of Customer Success for the commercial business at PandaDoc coming to us live from sunny Florida. And Ryanne appreciate you hopping on today. I'm excited about this.

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah, thanks much for having me, I'm looking forward to it.

Jeff: All right. We like to do a little series of icebreaker questions. You don't know these are coming unless you've listened to previous episodes. And then now you do know it's coming, but I try and change up the questions. I do have one that I consistently ask. And so I'm going to get that one out of the way, but then I've developed some new ones that I've liked. So first question is, what's your favorite fruit?

Ryanne Doumet: I don't feel like I discriminate against any fruit.

Jeff: That's a really good answer.

Ryanne Doumet: I'll say the fruit I've been eating the most lately. So I guess right now the favorite is strawberries. Been doing the classic coconut, yogurt, granola, and some strawberries on top.

Jeff: Ooh, that is, yeah. I like that one. That's good. I have pretty much made like the same smoothie. My wife is... She'll never listen to this podcast, so I'm in the clear, but she will never admit this, but I make the same smoothie like every morning. And I think it probably drives her nuts now. Because I just make her some, but like she never asked me to change the recipe or anything. And I'm just a guy that like, I'll just do something over and over and over. Like, it's one less thing I have to think of. So I do a strawberry, pineapple smoothie every morning, like a little protein smoothie and yeah, I just, I don't know. I can't change it. I might have to change soon.

Ryanne Doumet: That's a good one.

Jeff: Yeah.

Ryanne Doumet: You find something you like, you stick to it. There's nothing wrong with that.

Jeff: Yeah, so recently I had some new answers on that question though. Like somebody said cantaloupe recently. I totally forgot about cantaloupe. I didn't really think anybody would say that either. I didn't think that was anybody's favorite fruit. What else did I get? I got grapes recently too. That was a new one. Strawberries I've gotten a couple of times. Pineapple seems to be the favorite. There's a lot of pineapple fans out there.

Ryanne Doumet: And they're so beautiful.

Jeff: Yeah. So it tends to be one. All right. Next icebreaker question is, besides customer success if you were on jeopardy, what is the category of jeopardy that you would dominate?

Ryanne Doumet: Oh gosh, that's hard because I feel like I watch jeopardy and I'm not like stellar in any category.

Jeff: You can make up your own. Do you love watching like Friends and you could nail all, Friends history up in questions or...

Ryanne Doumet: I likely could actually, now you say that. That's actually a really good one.

Jeff: I just threw that out there.

Ryanne Doumet: Can I borrow that?

Jeff: Yeah, you got it.

Ryanne Doumet: I'll just say I phoned a friend and that's the answer I'm going to borrow.

Jeff: I like it. But yeah, that tends to be a good one that we've asked recently. Especially in some like team meetings, it kind of throws people off because that's normally not like an icebreaker question that I think people tend to get. So I've liked it.

Ryanne Doumet: You know, the more I think about it, I could probably answer questions on how to efficiently pack something. Like a suitcase, a trunk, like make the most use out of the space, like the best use out of the space.

Jeff: I love it. My wife has taken over those duties as well, because she says I'm really bad at it. But she also has mentioned to me about how it's like a game of Tetris for her. And she's like, this is so fun. And she's always trying to figure out like how to maximize the space. She's like," Oh, like this can fit in there." I'm like," No it can't." And she puts it in. She's like," Yep. There it is. Like, there you go." So I like that. That's a good one. All right. Last question. What's your go- to water? Is it standard just tap water? Are you like a Topo Chico? Is it, LaCroix? Like what's your go- to water?

Ryanne Doumet: Can I say like filtered fridge water? Is that okay?

Jeff: Yeah. Hey, that's... Hey.

Ryanne Doumet: I'm a filtered water person, but still... Well, filtered might not be the right thing. Like, you know like spring water, right?

Jeff: Yeah. Yep.

Ryanne Doumet: You still get like all the nutrients, but normally I'm drinking filtered water from my fridge. And if I'm out at a restaurant, like yeah, give me a good bottle of water. I don't want to like slam a brand, but I'm not quite into Aquafina.

Jeff: Hey, I don't think Aquafina's listening to this podcast. I think you're good. I think we can...

Ryanne Doumet: Hopefully I didn't just burn a bridge there, so...

Jeff: Yeah, they're not going to send you any free water soon, but yeah, I'm the same way. I'm the fridge is right downstairs and I work from home. So for me it's straight downstairs, get some fridge water walk back up, although...

Ryanne Doumet: And I'm like a refillable water bottle person. So...

Jeff: Yeah. Although I will admit, I do have a Topo Chico. You can't, it looks like it's filtered out of the frame, but I do have a Topo Chico sitting on my desk right now. We just did a Costco run and I realized that Costco has like a 24 pack of them. And so I got suckered into buying them.

Ryanne Doumet: I'm not a fan of sparkling water, so that's a distinction I can make. I'm a still water person, like a thousand percent. Yeah.

Jeff: All right. Thank you for indulging our icebreaker questions. I feel like we got to know you. I feel like we know, at the end of the day, what kind of water you like. We know that you can answer Friends questions or packing. And we also know that the best way for you to enjoy a Saturday or Sunday morning is eating some strawberries. So we learned a lot. Cool. All right. Well, let's dive in. I think there's two angles that we were going to take today and the first one is around metrics. I think there tends to be a lot of discussion. I think generally there's like one of three kind of lagging metrics that customer success team is tied to. It's either gross retention, net retention, or renewals. Sometimes you might see like a CSAT or like an NPS, but I think that's becoming more and more rare. So I thought interesting. Maybe just to talk through maybe what your experience has been like, you said you're a team lead now you've probably got other team leads around you and on your team. And so, how are you all thinking about what are the leading metrics that you look for that are telling you like, yes, we're doing the right things with customers. Like we think that's going to impact, or we know that to impact retention or renewals, the lagging indicators. So I'm curious if you all have had to go through that process or what your experience has been there.

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah, absolutely. And I think what we've done in the past few quarters is actually adjust our comp plan for our team. Every quarter it's been slightly different and that's more so to drive specific behavior. So classic answer of in the CS org, it all boils down to retention expansion. We have those in our comp, we have those in our comp every quarter. Those are definitely two big indicators we look at to see, are we trending in the right direction? Do we need to change something what's working? How can we be better? But something we added, I want to say for the past few quarters, is a new category for adoption. And those are more action items. Not so much like retention and expansion where it's a number and you pull a report and it's like very much based on percent or dollar amount. These are adoption match that are based on the actions our CSMs take with their accounts. So things like how many KBRs are you running within the quarter? And we, we put a threshold of like, this is the number you're trying to hit. Can we get you to do more? Are you doing less? What are your blockers? And the way that we set our adoption targets is, one, because we're trying to drive a certain skillset with our team and a certain like muscle memory to get them in the habit of doing something. But we also strategically choose what kind of adoption events we have them do based on what we think is going to drive the most value. We've gone through quite a bit. And we see value in all of them but QBR has been a reining one that we consistently have pulled in quarter over quarter. And most recently we're also doing something called workflow consultations. And that's more of the nitty gritty, like getting in there and really deep diving into what does your workflow look like? What are your team that are using it? Talk me through point A to point Z. Where does PandaDoc fit into that process? Not just getting centered on only the PandaDoc workflow, right? It's like, how does this factor into your entire organization? Like where do we come in? Can we come at a different time to improve things? So that's actually been a really cool one to see. We've gotten great feedback on it and it's been driving a lot of really high value conversations for us.

Jeff: I love that one, workflow consultation, for a couple of reasons. One, the word consultation, just because I think it connotes like a certain type of discussion that you want to have. You're trying to come in and provide your expertise in a consultative way so you're going to be asking, questions about certain things, but you're really just trying to sit there and say," Hey, where else can we provide value? What else could we be doing?" The second thing that I love about that too, is I typically have held the belief, and I don't know if everybody would agree, but I typically try and think about like, I would say on average, or I always just make a guesstimate, but like 30% of the time maybe customers are using our software tool. And I think that's pretty much in any industry, like in any company, right? It may slack, may be a little outlier. Salesforce might be an outlier, but by and large, I just make the assumption that, Hey, my customer is probably going to be in our platform 30 to 40% of their time. That means there's a whole 60 to 70% that we can impact. And that's another reason why I love that consultation. And some of the verbiage that you just use because it's like, Hey, our software can do a lot and we can help enable them in the software. But like, we don't know what we don't know. So we need to go figure out where are they using the data that comes from our product? Are they using it in other meetings? Is it going into other tools or systems? Are there other projects going on that we should know about that if I only ask questions about our product I'm never going to find out? So like those types of things I think are generally where you find really good CSMs. Like you said, if you can get them to be thinking about that consistently, that's where you get CSMs that are asking the right questions to kind of provide value to that person. But then also working their way into other relationships in the organization or getting outside of that direct team as well, just to find other opportunities. So I really like that. For that consultation, how does that typically go? Like what's the flow or the meeting type that you have with a customer there? Is it like a standard kind of agenda that you have?

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah. So what's great about a lot of our conversations and a key way we've been able to scale having these high value conversations across all of our CSMs and a lot of our customers is because our decks are built in PandaDoc. So we actually leveraging our own technology, which is great because it's another way to show that, Hey, you're using our software on the sales side, but we use our software in every department. And here's an indirect way of showing you that. So that's a really great way to do it. And having them built in templates, it streamlines a lot of what we're trying to get our CSMs to hold discussions around. And then when they create that document from that template, they can alter it to what's specific to that client. But we build them on the leadership side so that anytime you need to have any conversation with your client, we have a deck for that. So it makes the prep time for a call much more efficient. When I started out, I was sometimes spending two hours, three hours prepping a QBR, for example, not because I didn't know my client, it just took so much time to gather the high value metrics and data I needed. When we rolled out these templates, and it was quite a project, it took me three minutes to prepare my decks.

Jeff: That's wow.

Ryanne Doumet: And I was just, Oh my gosh, I can get on so many more client calls now. Right? So we've taken out a lot of the legwork and the prep. And in doing that, when we ramp new hires, they already know how to start having high value conversations. Because the deck's kind of like the guideline for that. So it fosters really good habits from the get go.

Jeff: Yeah. I think the other thing too, about eating your own dog food, so to speak, is probably that you can also like slide in and out elements of a template. Right? It drives a lot of consistency. So we know customers are getting a similar experience, even though there's probably going to be a different delivery person to person, at least it's the same content potentially on the slides or at least it's presented in a manner that's going to be consistent, not only customer to customer, but then month over month or quarter over quarter, I can make sure that it's consistent in what we're delivering. So I love that too.

Ryanne Doumet: It also helps us make sure that we're gathering the same data points so that we can start looking at analytics and reporting and having like a good baseline of enough information rather than scattered information everywhere, different data points. So...

Jeff: Yeah. The other thing that you had mentioned too, which is interesting, and, again, I think this is maybe an evolution of what you're seeing in customer success as well, is that you said like, you're taking out some of the legwork. The power of using tools and automation and things behind the scenes is that you're making your team's time more effective. And so if I can reduce the time it takes to prepare for a QBR from two hours to 15 minutes, that means more customer calls, that means probably better preparation. So instead of just preparing slides about that customer, maybe I'm preparing better questions. I'm going to do more research on them as a business. So you can use your time more effectively. So that's another thing too, that I just think sometimes maybe goes under the radar is that sometimes you think I have to automate everything to my customer at the end of the day, right? Like, oh, I need to get these emails out the door. I need to have trigger points that send automation into the product. And those things definitely will help over time. But internally, like there's like some really easy stuff that you can do for your team. And if you can help open up their time that means their book of business they can manage it in a better way, which I think sometimes just goes into the radar.

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah. It just really helps the CSM focus on the story and like uncovering pain points. So instead of them being worried about, like, where do I go to get their adoption metrics? Or we have something we call the wise framework and it's metrics that we use. Now I just spent 30 minutes collecting wise metrics. And it can kind of disrupt your thought process as well. So now what we've done is we've streamlined how you get all that data so you can actually take your prep time to analyze it. What are you seeing? What points do you want to take to your client and then have them validate that what you think we're seeing on the reporting side, is that actually a pain point they're seeing on their end? Do they not care about that metric? What do they care about? We have like 20, so let's, let's go ahead and narrow it down and make sure we're reporting on the things that matter to them. It makes for a much better conversation and also storyline. Metrics are dense to look at and people don't want to sit there and have metrics regurgitate it to them. They want a story out of it so that they can portray something actionable, right? Streamlining so much of that internally allows for us to do that better.

Jeff: Yeah. I think the other thing that you just hit on too, that, again, kind of goes by the wayside or goes under the radar maybe, is the analysis part. I can't tell you how many times I've sat in a meeting and it's literally like, I'm looking at metrics on the slide that, A, you don't need to read them to me. I can read them myself. B, I could probably go pull those out of the tool myself as well so are those really the best things to be presenting? So that analysis I think is just something that also catches... I think you find good CSMs and you find good companies when you're caught off guard because they bring good metrics to the table and it opens up and insights discussion. They put their own opinions or hypothesis in there that says," Hey, this metric looks like it moved because of X, Y, and Z. Are you seeing that on your end?" Or like," Did you all do anything different? How are you thinking about that internally?" But if you can like have that type of discussion it really changes from, Oh my gosh, I hate coming to QBR because they're just reciting metrics to me and it actually parlays this, Hey, we're going to look a little bit at the past and kind of what happened, but that should really be helping to fuel conversations about what are we going to do next? How's it going to fuel things in the future? How are we going to change and iterate and get better from here?

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it.

Jeff: All right. We wanted to take a minute. And if you haven't implemented a CRM system into your business now is the time a CRM platform is at the heart of scaling your side hustle into your success story. CRM platforms, take any customer interaction and transform that interaction into valuable data and insights, allowing you to strengthen relationships with your customers and grow your business. With tools for marketing, sales, customer service, content management, and operations, the HubSpot CRM platform is fully customizable for whatever your business needs. Use HubSpot to meet customer demand, align your teams and work smarter without slowing down. With total control and over 650 integrations, HubSpot is totally customizable and purpose built for businesses big and small. Whether you're just getting started or looking for all the bells and whistles. HubSpot is the number one CRM platform for scaling businesses. Learn more about how you can customize your CRM platform with HubSpot at hubspot. com. Now back to the show. Okay. So we talked about the QBR. You had mentioned the workflow consultation. Are there any other kind of adoption ones or key moments or those types of things, are there any other ones that you all found to be effective?

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah. I mean, we measure a lot. We measure a lot of metrics. So when I say we look at adoption, retention, expansion, that's strictly for our comp plan, right? But we do look at NPS score. We do look at QBR survey feedback. We look at our renewal survey feedbacks and see how people are responding to their interactions with our CSM. We have a lot of metrics that we look at. I think the reason we brought in that adoption key into our comp plan is because when you're looking at churn analysis, you are trying to figure out why are your customers churning, right? And sometimes it's going to be product related and that's going to take a little bit more collaboration internally. Adoption is one that doesn't take as much collaboration. That's on us and that's more in our control. And volume usage is huge. If there's low volume usage, you're looking at potential churn. It's going to come at you whether you want it to or not. So you can be ignorant and avoid it and to wait for renewal time and then it hits you. Or you can be proactive about it and be honest with your client and tell them, Hey, I recognize you guys aren't using the platform. What can we do? How can we get in there? Let me help you. Tell me what you need. Tell me what your workflow is. Maybe I can then tell you what we can do to help alleviate some of those pains. So adoption's just... There's so many pieces and metrics that we look at in adoption, but taking a look specifically of the licenses that have been purchased by a client, how many licenses are assigned, and then of those licenses, what's the activation rate. So two really important metrics that help us figure out like what's the root of the problem. And that's been a really key one in us noting potential churn and how to avoid it.

Jeff: Yeah. I've started calling some of those like intervention moments where it's like, Hey, you're clearly not at the level of adoption that we'd expect at the moment where you are. We want to have this intervention and we want to make sure it's a stark conversation because we don't want you to not be successful. If you're not successful, you're going to churn. And that's an indication on us that means you're not getting success. So we're trying to help. And so I think we've found that having some of those stark conversations, like you said, earlier in the process to say, Hey, this is already heading down a red path. We don't want you to just keep kind of bumbling along for the next two or three months. We'd rather just hit it on the head right now. Let's have a stark conversation about what's happening, tends to go a lot better. You can tend to get it back on course. I think sometimes it might be scary to have those conversations with a customer because you're like, Well, we're their vendor. They're paying us. Can I really... And it doesn't have to be so frank or stark, but I just think at the end of the day, if you can have that type of relationship with your customer, that's going to speak volumes to you. But calling it something that is going to incite a little bit of, not anxiety I guess, but like a little bit of something like," Hey, this is an intervention moment. Like we realize that you're going down the wrong path." We've seen that work. And customers respond to that. Instead of just saying," Hey, we noticed you're not using the product," or" Hey, this is whatever," but like," Hey, this is an intervention moment and we're going to get you back on the path to green." So just as an example of what you were talking about, we've definitely seen that before too.

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah, no, I think it's really important. I think sometimes in CS people are scared to have those tough conversations, I think, especially starting out in their career. And the reality is is that customers like transparency. That's really what it boils down to. And as much as we don't want to look at that churn, at the end of the day, the sooner you can understand why your customer isn't adopting, you can start to realize, can you make an impact to change that? Is this something that's out of our control? It's a partnership, it's a partnership. As a CSM, you can give so much, but you do need your customer to give something back because it's software and it needs to be adopted. Just because you purchase it doesn't mean it's this magical solution that's going to solve all your problems. There's some investment, right? From the other side that they need to put some legwork in there or give you a resource that you can influence to really partner with and make a change.

Jeff: Yeah. You had mentioned something earlier, too, that I was curious if you could... You said you send out a renewal survey. What is in the renewal survey? Is it at the time of renewal and you're asking questions about their renewal process? Or is it more of like a survey that's about the relationship that you've had maybe over the past 12 months?

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah. So it's a survey that gets sent out after the renewal has happened and it actually focuses on two things. The first being, how was the process? And then the second being, how was your CSM experience? So that helps us also pinpoint is the issue with the CSM or is the issue with the process? If we do start to get not so great feedback.

Jeff: Yeah. We don't have something like that currently, but I've been thinking more and more. And one of the other things I think would be nice as well is to even try and use that as a moment to understand, especially at scale, if you can, like understand," Hey, have you met the business objectives that you were hoping to?" Asking a couple of questions as you again... It's like," Hey, we just went through the renewal process. You're going to be with us, theoretically for the next 12 months so how can we make sure again, that we're kind of setting ourselves up for success?" And we're going to have a CSM conversation soon probably, but how can we get ahead of some of that stuff and just say," Hey, answer a couple of these questions." And then the CSM maybe comes a little bit more prepared to that next meeting where we're kind of setting the right tone for the next 12 months where it's says," Hey, I know we didn't hit all of our objectives over the last 12 months. We want to try and do better. Here are some ideas I'm bringing to the table about how we might be able to do that." So that's another piece that I think we've looked into.

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah. And some of the questions that you touched on are actually what we address in our QBR survey. So those are the two key surveys that go out. We're not just waiting for renewal time to see how you're feeling. Right? We're keeping records every quarter, we're doing a pulse check. So after the QBR goes out, those are those moments of are your business objectives being met? Do you feel your CSM understands your goals? Did you find value out of this conversation? So those are the two key areas where we're asking a lot of the experience questions.

Jeff: Nice. Yeah. I like that a lot. And I think too, I mean, surveys get a bad rap, I think. Right? Because it's like, well, who wants to fill out a survey? Like we survey customers all the time. But if you can set it up, I think I've found two things, and I'm curious if you've seen something similar. Like if you can give customers like a heads up, like a real," Hey, we're going to send you this survey. Here's what it's for. Here's how long it's going to take you. Here's why we really appreciate if you filled it out. Here's what you're going to get back from it essentially at the end of the day." If you can do that really well. And then if you do the follow up really well. And I'm not talking about the follow up, like," Hey, we hear you. We got your survey." But," Hey, we heard these three points. Here's how we're trying to address them."" Hey, you're not alone. We heard the same thing from a thousand of our other customers. And here's how we're trying to adjust it." But how can you incorporate more feedback from others and make them feel like they're a part of something? Like that is another way that we've tried to do it. Like one example, we send out our NPS on a rolling basis. So, essentially depending... Like we send out NPS surveys every single day, theoretically, but you can only get it twice a year. And so that rolling cadence allows us to kind of consistently get data. And the reason why we did that was now on a quarterly basis, we actually send out like Jay, our Chief Customer Officer, records a video and he goes through and kind of aligns," Hey, here are the two to three major or themes that we heard and here are key projects that we're aligning to those." And sends it out. And our participation rate in our NPS has steadily gone up as we've done that. Because I think again, back to your point, customers appreciate the transparency. They appreciate us closing the loop. And I think they just feel a little bit more connected into the company, right? They're like," Oh, they are listening to me when I do give feedback. They are trying to change. They're trying to adapt. They're not just a big, bad corporation. That's out to just take my money and leave."

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah, exactly. And speaking of NPS, that's something we have built into our app. So that's another data point that we collect. But we do take feedback very seriously. And we appreciate when someone takes the time to leave it. So actually at a leadership level, if someone leaves not so great feedback, the leaders actually reach out directly to the client and chime in and say," Hey, we saw that this is a feedback you left. What did we miss the mark on?" And we do make it very action oriented. And there's been some really great moments where we've been able to, not reconnect, they've already had contact. But just kind of like reframe the partnership with their CSM and steer the CSM in a different direction based on that feedback. And it's been really nice to hear customers say," Thanks. Yeah, I have a call for that set up now and I feel better." Or," We're actually going to talk through this more and see what the game plan is." It's a lot more positive. And I think reaching out at a higher level makes people feel appreciated. It's being fed up the chain and we're hearing it and we're listening to it.

Jeff: Yeah, that organizations think, Oh, when we say that somebody from higher up needs to reach out, everyone's always like," Well, the CEO needs to do it or the chief customer officer," but even customers just appreciate like a team lead or a manager or a director or somebody who is... It's just a little bit more of an influence thing, right? Hey, I know that you're a team lead and that you've got influence with all of your team leads in certain meetings that you're going to be sitting in. I know that my feedback is going to be heard. And that just comes from a little different place. So it doesn't always have to be, Hey, the CEO needs to reach a, out to every NPS negative responder. Like I've seen companies that try to do that. So I think that's so true. Yeah. All right. There's a couple minutes. I just wanted to dive in, because we were talking about it a little bit. You've you've got yourself like a little bit of a marketing background. Or not a little bit, you have a marketing background. And I think there is this tie- in now that's becoming so clear between customer success and marketing more so than ever. It's not only making sure that we get the right content customers, but as we start to scale teams, as we get more customers onboarded, there just tends to become a natural place where we need to be getting them various types of content, things that matter to them. And it needs to be kind of in their journey. Like it needs to be part of what they're doing. It also needs to be kind of on demand. They need to be able to go access it. And so I'm curious, we were talking a little bit about it, but like right now for you all, how do you all get to influence maybe what content is coming out of the marketing team and maybe going to your customers. Like how do you all try and play maybe an influential role in, A, like what content's being produced and then, B, just the process maybe of what's happening?

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah. I think at a high level, it stems from our OKRs, right? It stems from our OKRs that are at a leadership level. And for our OKRs, we're not siloed. We really break out into units to try and get things is done. So you'll have pretty much a rep from almost every single department working on an OKR. And through that, marketing's obviously involved and you guys get to influence what the other is doing. I think it boils down to ownership and alignment. To make sure you can get what you need it's really important for every department to understand what they're supposed to own. And then making sure that you guys have the bandwidth to work on the same things. And I feel that doing that, we really get the assets we need and we get them in a really efficient way. One example, being like a webinar that we're rolling out for customer success. It's specifically about using PandaDoc for customer success for the account management team, for onboarding. And I just think that's such a prime example of how our marketing team is so solid and just really understands what they own in that process. we brainstorm this idea, we get on a call, and then three days later we're looking at a long deck to approve and it's like, Wow, you guys just went after it so fast. And it just builds the momentum for us to want to keep moving quickly. But ownership and alignment I think is really what it boils down to not just with marketing, but with every department.

Jeff: Yeah. I think the thing that I heard a little bit in there too, is just also keeping people focused on what they're good at, right? Like, customer success managers might not want to be content creators. They might not think of themselves that way inaudible be good at it. But they do have expertise. They do have inaudible said, right? Like," Hey, we're using PandaDoc for ourselves. So we've got some institutional knowledge here that we need to be able to share." So can I boil that down into five or ten bullet points? And then can I give to our marketing team or a content writer, or whoever it is, and then let them run with it. That's where they're great at writing. They're great at thinking about content delivery. They're thinking about how to put together the right slides, all that kind of stuff. And so, like you said, if you can make sure that you've got the right responsibilities, then again, you're kind of keeping people in the lanes where it's almost like, I forget the quote recently, but it's like double down on your strengths. Don't work on your weaknesses. And so it's like," Hey, we know we're really good at this. I'm going to stay in this lane, but I know I can influence this and I can give you like institutional knowledge." So how can we do that best?

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah. And I think, kind of on what you touched on, it's respecting the swim lanes. I come from a marketing background. I've written scripts. I've done webinars. I actually have that background to do it. But it's the respect that that's not where my responsibilities lie anymore and that's not where my time is needed. So brainstorming with me is great because I can definitely come from a marketing perspective too, but just respecting that that's not where my time's going to go anymore.

Jeff: Yeah. You got other things to work on now, you know?

Ryanne Doumet: Right.

Jeff: For you all too, like what have you found maybe as like some of the... Like our webinars really working with customers, do you all send out like tools or templates that they can use? Is it PowerPoint decks? I'm just curious if you've kind of found like little things here or there that you're just like, Wow, customers really got attracted to this type of content.

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah. I can't regurgitate metrics to you, but when we were recently talking about how our webinars do, because I was part of the conversation of," Is this worth our time? Are we getting traction on webinars?" I was very impressed with the traction that we get. So yeah. Webinars are working great for us. I think the team does a really great job about making them human. So being vulnerable, if we're talking about how we're using PandaDoc in CS, a lot of what we're talking about is how we had a really hard time doing it. And how we were having a hard time scaling and why we put so much effort into using our own product for our use case. And being vulnerable and transparent about it. Again, going back to like being in CS and your customers want that humanness. So yeah, our webinars work great for us, but we have so many mediums that we do in marketing. You have your automated campaigns, you have blog posts, you have community forums. We actually launched something recently called Grow, which our enablement team does short videos specifically for our client base. So it's like video tutorials. I think it's important to have different kinds of mediums because everyone consumes things differently now. Some people are willing to read or to watch like a 40 minute video and other people want to watch a two minute video. Some of them read. We have a podcast, some people want to listen to things. So I think it's important to kind of go after all and then double down on the areas that work well.

Jeff: Yeah. I keep thinking a lot, you want to have something that's one minute, five minutes, fifteen minutes or fifty minutes. And typically it's like, if you have a variety of those things, like you said, you're going to find a bulk of your customers gravitate towards one or two and then you start figuring out, Okay, how do we maybe produce all? But we double down on those like extremely hard and we kind of filter out content throughout the others when we have time or we have additional capacity. The other thing that, again, I think I've thought about quite a bit just from our community, like from Gain Grow Retain, like I think the thing that I think about quite a bit, because we had to do this in the early days, is also like, how do you take one content piece and leverage it in five or six ways, right? We spent a lot of time putting together this PowerPoint deck. Cool. Great. Can I do a loom video that is just me in the corner and I'm talking over the slides. Can we then do a webinar where we're asking questions back and forth to the audience? Can I then turn that into a blog piece? Can I then share the deck out? What are all the ways that I can do that? Because then you're also starting to realize too, like, Hey, if we put time into one asset, it's going to be used and leveraged in so many different ways. Like that's also really valuable for your teams.

Ryanne Doumet: Absolutely. That's like the bread and butter of marketing. How can you make typically a small budget go a really long way?

Jeff: Exactly. And in my marketing days, at least I found is that as much as you would think marketing budgets always go up, it's like, they don't really go up as much as you think. It's always like, Oh, we need to figure out how to continue to do more with less. It's like, Oh, okay. For another year. Great. Okay.

Ryanne Doumet: Exactly. And I used to work in an agency, so that was always like, How can we add the most value without telling our clients they need to spend more?

Jeff: Yeah. The good old days of working in an agency. I'm sure we could tell stories back and forth on that one. Well, awesome. Ryanne, it was awesome to do this. I think there's a ton of good little nuggets in here. Like I said, we'll definitely get this out and there'll be a couple of shareable moments, but your chance to be shameless, where can people find out more about you or PandaDoc? Where can they go do that?

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah, I'm on a lot of social platforms. So professionally, LinkedIn obviously is going to be the best place to find me. Feel free to reach out. I love answering CS questions. I've helped people get their foot in the door at PandaDoc if you're trying to do that. And then our website. We're consistently building it out. We have a page dedicated just to CS. So feel free to check out our website, and then connect with me on LinkedIn.

Jeff: Perfect. I love it. Well, I hope you have a good rest of your week. Do something fun this weekend Get outside in the Florida sunshine. Hopefully it's a nice time. And we'll do this again soon.

Ryanne Doumet: Yeah. Thanks so much. And same to you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 4: Hey guys, thanks so much for taking the time to listen to the gain, grow, retain podcast. If you liked what you heard, please take a moment and share the podcast with your friends and colleagues and subscribe. We really appreciate it. Talk to you soon.


Today, Ryanne Doumet of PandaDoc, is here to talk with Jeff about metrics in customer success.

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Today's Host

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Jeff Breunsbach

|Director of Customer Experience at Higher Logic
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Jay Nathan

|Chief Customer Officer at Higher Logic

Today's Guests

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Ryanne Doumet

|Manager, Customer Success, PandaDoc