In Product Experience

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This is a podcast episode titled, In Product Experience. The summary for this episode is: <p>A weekly segment:</p><p>CSM Office Hours</p><p>Every Tuesday. 11:30am ET.</p><p><a href="https://lu.ma/CSMOH" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lu.ma/CSMOH</a></p><p>--</p><p>If you want to join the discussion with thousands of other customer success leaders, join Gain Grow Retain: <a href="http://gaingrowretain.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://gaingrowretain.com/</a></p><p>This podcast is brought to you by Jay Nathan and Jeff Breunsbach...</p><p>Jay Nathan: <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaynathan/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaynathan/</a></p><p>Jeff Breunsbach: <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffreybreunsbach" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffreybreunsbach</a></p>
App Queues
00:54 MIN
Leveraging Date Sources
00:59 MIN
Working Within Solutions
00:18 MIN
Customer Education
00:54 MIN
People Coming From Within the Product
00:39 MIN

Madeline: Thanks. Jeff, happy Friday, everyone. A couple of years ago, my company, I worked for a hotel software company. We acquired a competitor. At the time, we only had 400 accounts, and the competitor had 1500 accounts. So we made an aggressive decision to sunset that competitor's product and move everyone onto our platform. So we very quickly had to change from being a very high- touch implementation process and physically traveling all over the world to train in person, to training at a scale of 1500 customers onto our platform. So we invested in a tool called Articulate 360, which does a certification video training. It is an investment, and it does take some design and some vocalization. You have to kind of record all of the training, but it was a great investment in terms of making it very self- service. But we also paired it with doing a series of webinar trainings in which clients could sign up to attend the webinars, and could actually be in a group with other clients on video, like we are here. And what resulted is that we built a customer community around this. So customers met each other as they were onboarded onto the new platform. We had multiple facilitators gating any negative feedback or gating any rabbit hole conversations to keep it at bay. But it was a great combination of giving them a self- service tool, but also creating a community and getting that high touch training remotely at scale. So I recommend finding kind of that middle ground of both.

Jeff: Awesome. In that experience for you too, you mentioned kind of having that experience with Articulate 360 kind of a lot of video driven and kind of embedded into that experience. I guess, were you finding that the discussion in kind of that community aspect was, I guess, was a lot less about specific things in the product and platform, and became a lot more about kind of the role that they were in, the strategy that they were defining. And so I guess, did you find that that was the key between those two things is that there is something that very specifically walked them through the product, and then you could have an avenue to talk about more strategic conversations with your peers?

Madeline: Well, we learned quickly that we needed to really gate the conversations, right? So when it would start to go down a path that we didn't want it to go down, especially when you're changing tools, there was some animosity there. We were taking away a tool and replacing it with a new tool. So having multiple people facilitate the conversations and starting the conversation with more of the strategic side, right? So you're training users, but you could also put yourself into their shoes and their use case and inform them on how this is going to make their job easier, and start to ask open- ended questions that conside into more strategic long- term gaining value from the product and creating a community for what the customer's needs were. You got to do it right.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting the more that we start talking about this because there's this avenue now, you've got education combining with community, combining with support, combining with onboarding, right? There's so many different things that are now coming to the presapus of, how do you introduce this to a customer? What takes precedent? What's important? So I think that's the... I don't know. It's interesting hearing more and more stories as we go through this. So Andrea, it looks like you have your hand raised.

Andrea: Yes. To add on what Madeline just said in regards to kind of outsourcing in a sense, the onboarding experience so that the engineering team could more focus on some of the agile aspects than trying to integrate the tool like Pando or something like that. So for an SMB solution, I also established a community. And in that community, it was particular for new customers. So an onboarding community with a set curriculum, and it had basically lessons in the lesson plan in there. Designed around getting used to the product very quickly, having some early successes, and then also having this community aspect, right? Of people collaborating with each other, having these kind of cohorts, celebrating when people achieve milestones, and then also monitoring if someone got stuck at a particular lesson or wasn't making any progress with telemetry back to the CSMs to reach out to folks and try to facilitate then some more in- person touch experiences. And that helped a lot, like I said, to avoid the animosities between customer success. Saying to engineering, no, we need all this kind of stuff. And they're like, well, we have other things on our plate that are more important.

Jeff: Awesome. I appreciate you sharing that Andrea. And it sounds like I'm starting to see some similar things though people. It sounds like community is becoming quickly an aspect that you can get new customers in to start introducing them to the product, get them introduced to peers and cohorts who are doing similar things. So awesome. Nick, it looks like you've got your hand raised.

Nick: Hello. Yes. Hi, nice to meet everyone. Just to touch on the point that Andrea has just mentioned about the eng team. One solution that I've used in the past that I really enjoyed was app queues. I was just talking about it in the group, it's like Clippit, the old school Microsoft Office, except for new softwares. So it really, besides some initial setup with the dev team, after that, you can build it up completely on your own. And it really helped us build out onboarding flows and help self- service to take care of some of the lower value items that we still needed our clients to do. So things like, how do you guide them to create their team accounts? How do you guide them to update their credit card information? How do you guide them to create their first action that they need on your platform to get the desirable outcome? And we put that in tandem with outreach IO, to have the manual outreach points if we saw that a user didn't do their desired outcome in a certain period of time, it would automatically launch outreach sequences and emails. So that way we can have reps manually follow up to help the self- service folks.

Jeff: Yeah. I love that. And I love trying to get them to work in tandem, especially if you get the data phone, right? It always is going to be really helpful. One thing that I'm sitting here thinking about too, just as a larger group as well. I think we've all kind of talked about leading the customer to do things inside of the platform. How have you identified during that onboarding experience? What are some of those time to first value or what are those value moments where you're actually getting them to go do something, it feels like you're leading them to their outcome? I'm curious if anybody's got experiences of trying to identify that, how you're making sure that's the right kind of moment of value? Or if you're training them to go do something, how does that kind of fit into the bigger picture as you've done that? Chad, looks like you have your hand raised.

Chad: Well, I'm curious too because I feel like I've been at a couple of different industries where it's a balance of time to value, and also stickiness. So from a product perspective and adoption, it's trying to find the right mix of a feature that's going to either keep them in or keep them coming back, while also providing initial value. So that's always the balance I try and find. But if you're lucky enough to have data, especially Pando data on what's been used in your product already, the data should really tell you. I've struggled with Pando, at least, I don't know if anybody else, about working with engineering to make sure it's giving me the right sense of what user activity that means. So there's a lot of generic data of clicks, but the devil's in the details to actually sife it out. But I'd say for me, any feature that triggers more notifications from the software to pull you back in is the one I prioritize. So in the case of the software I work on, there's a project sense that you set up alerts. So they've already had to see value to decide who to put in that project folder. So guiding them through finding that initial right profile. But from there, it's finding features that are going to pull them back in. So that's kind of the approach I've taken in the past.

Jeff: Awesome. I appreciate you sharing that, Chad. Yeah, I think we're going through that similar kind of definition process trying to figure out what's appropriate. How do we get them kind of locked into the right thing so that there's initial value they're getting, but also, what are those steps right after that are bringing them back? And how we can coordinate that. Again, kind of using in product is the big question that we're asking ourselves. Dave, looks like you've got your hand raised.

Dave: Yeah. So just along those lines. I have this hunch, and I have not tested this to prove this out at all. But one of the things that I would like to do is to reflect that progress back to the user, and then maybe even compare them to their peers within a specific cohort so kind of challenge them a little bit. 90% of the people who have great experiences with our set of tools and services are at this point, you're beating them, you're going to get a t- shirt at the end of the day kind of thing.

Jeff: I don't even know if you have to give them a t- shirt. I think you can probably relay back the value and back to the outcomes they're going to be able to drive. But yeah, I love that. That's a good... I feel like I always get motivated that way. There's some apps out there that do that, especially for further things, weight loss, whatever it might be. Loom, I think does some of that stuff pretty well in their app in the BDC app environment. I'm curious if anybody's kind of followed that? Anybody kind of playing back results to their customers, especially through that onboarding process. Go ahead, Summer.

Summer: Just one comment in response to Dave, your comment. One thing that we implemented in the past when I was at Thought Industries for a lot of our own customers, we were... I'm no longer there, but so learning technology company was a learner dashboard and a leader dashboard. So you can kind of overlay the two to that point. And then you can, using different kinds of profile tags, allow users that are similar to one another to kind of have exposure to kind of progress of other users. So that's one simple approach that you can leverage. Probably an ELMS four, but I'm sure there are other external kind of point solutions that can help do that too.

Jeff: Awesome. Appreciate you sharing that Summer, that's a good one. David, looks like you got your hand raised.

David: Yeah. I'm working with a company right now that wants to put some sort of recognition back into their software. Similar to, if you remember the early days of GPS software? If it tells you to make a turn, and after you make a turn, it gives you a ding, nice job you've made the turn I told you to make, right? What they want to do is they want to incorporate best practices in their software, and then they want to track how many of those best practices the customer actually uses and takes advantage of. And then they want to reward them some way for using that best practice that was put out there. And we're trying to figure out the best tool to help them do that.

Jeff: That's awesome because at the end of the day too, I mean, if you can tie the best practice back also to the outcomes and the data that you're able to leverage then too. I'm sure that obviously creates a snowball effect, right? The stories that come out of that are probably pretty powerful.

David: Absolutely. And then you can use that to sell that functionality to somebody else.

Jeff: Awesome. Yeah. That's a good... That just rang for me after 30 seconds. But yeah, that rings for you. Perfect. Well, we've talked about onboarding a little bit. It sounds like a lot of organizations now, it sounds like a lot of it is, how do you kind of envelop this community type experience at the beginning? How do you make sure you can get some of this in product experience? We've had kind of embedded videos. It sounds like guided walkthroughs. Krista talked a lot about trying to find some of those measurements and kind of those windows of where people might be falling behind, and try and keep up. Anything else you want to throw out there before we jump maybe to the next topic? Give three or four seconds. Awkward silence. Sorry, Jay. Awesome. All right. Well, the next question that I had written down for us was just around, how are you leveraging product data and surface insights kind of directly in the product as well? So I think... Actually Brian and I talked about this a lot, how can we kind of use that product data to get proactive with customers? We're seeing trends that maybe are positive, negative. How are we kind of surfacing that back to them? Almost back to David's point too, if there's best practices they should be using, are we able to capture that data and play it back? So I'm curious if anybody has any stories about ways that they've done that, data that you've leveraged, how you've kind of brought that back to bear, maybe for some customers through kind of in product experiences. Whether that's pop- ups, dashboards, walk- throughs, whatever that might be. But anything come to mind for anybody here? Going once before I start calling on people.

Speaker 9: What was the question? I didn't hear the question.

Jeff: Nobody? Nobody's got one? Not even one story? Come on. I'm going to have to get people crosstalk.

Speaker 10: Jeff, actually in the group chat. I noticed that Melissa VanPelt, it looks like she's doing something fairly interesting called Success Snapshot. I don't know if Melissa, I don't want to put you on the spot, but that sounds super interesting. I'd love to learn more.

Jeff: Melissa, you just got put on the spot. You're still on mute, Melissa.

Melissa: Here we go. Can you hear me?

Jeff: Yeah. We got you.

Melissa: Yeah. So we do something that I think is really effective at Seismic. We use our own technology, which is called inaudible technology. And it's essentially a presentation where we can call and leverage data sources from all different points of data. And so what we have built out for our customers, is we inaudible using adoption, what features they're using, and we can compare it and correlate it to what features we know are super sticky. What features are going to drive the biggest value. We compare them to different cohorts, and look at, Hey, well, this is what you're doing today. This is our maturity curve. This is where you fall. This is what we need to do. With very specific data- driven steps to move them in the right direction to help them mature their sales enablement practice or their automation practices. And so when we go into QBRs, we have very data- driven talking points to talk to our customers about, with data- driven actions that they can take over the next quarter to move them along and mature their practices.

Jeff: Man, I love that so much. And I think it kind of resonates too with what David was saying is maybe his Holy Grail, David Ellender, just talking about, how do we have this maturity model? How do we have best practices that we can then measure against. What for you... This is a bad question to ask, but I'm just going to ask it anyways. But how hard was it to bring all those data sources to bear? How did you go about that process? Was it just starting with one data source and then moving out from there? How did you kind of tackle what I think is maybe the big question, which is, is the data right? Is it accurate? And how do I get it? I'm so curious how you kind of approached it from that angle.

Melissa: Yeah. Many variations, many versions. So we've definitely evolved over time from our B1 snapshot to where we are today. I think we first had to have a significant number of implementation, successful implementations, poor implementations, to truly understand what is going to be valuable to our customers? What works? What doesn't work? To start to then be able to correlate usage to success. I think that took some time. In terms of... We're fortunate enough that the majority of all of our data is stored in Snowflake. So we have all these different tables that we can use and leverage and correlate with one another to bring into this Success Snapshot for customers. But yeah. I wouldn't say this happened overnight, I would say this has been an evolution over the last three years, really.

Jeff: Yeah. And I'm going to ask you two more questions, then I'll let you off the spot and we'll let you go on. But how often do you play that snapshot for them? Is it just anytime that they're kind of falling behind in that maturity curve? Or is it at specific kind of moments across their customer journey? How often does that happen?

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, we have quarterly business reviews. So it's standard practice that we are always reviewing the Success Snapshot on the quarterly business reviews. We also have alerts. So we use Gainsight's CS product as well. So we have alerts to understand if adoption or log- ins are starting to decrease, and we need to reengage with the customer. We have sentiment scores that we're constantly looking at and monitoring. So we use it pretty heavily. When you say," If people are falling behind." I think the unique thing with maturity is that based off of who you are as a customer and your profile, your size, maturity might be one thing to IBM versus one of our smaller commercial customers. And so we have to really be flexible and understand what maturity means to different segments, and adapt the Success Snapshot that way as well. So I think that the unique thing is the framework is so scalable, and it can be applied across all of our different segments.

Jeff: Yeah. I do like that a lot. And I like how you mentioned that it's something consistent that you can do across the board, right? The snapshot now means something inside the organization. Everybody probably has an understanding of what it is, what customers are being sent, why it's there. So I love that. I know Sarah asked you a question, but I'll let you answer that in chat. You don't have to... I'll take you off the spot. But Sarah was asking if that's in app or if you have CSMs deliver kind of that snapshot. And then I think there was another question maybe to you as well, Melissa, if you want to answer in the chat if you don't mind. But some of the technology used to power some of those experiences would be fun to hear too.

Melissa: Sure. Yeah. I'll go ahead and post them on the chat.

Jeff: Awesome. Tyler, Mr. Air horn, cell horn himself. How's it going, sir?

Tyler: First of all, I wanted to celebrate just the GGR community here. I just want to say thank you to Jeff and Jay for being the self- starters, innovators, initiators. Thank you very much for the opportunity to be learning together, learning out loud together. The thing that I wanted to share about is that one of the things that our software, we're time- tracking project management kind of proof of work stuff. And we have a broad set of use cases. So the thing that we're doing on the way in the door is we're asking industry, we're asking what they're hoping to accomplish, which features are interesting to them basically. We're not asking that question necessarily at the beginning, but on the tech touch size, we are saying to them, Hey, what are the goals that you're trying to accomplish? What did you hear from marketing that made you interested in trying out Hubstaff. Well, okay. So then we have a set of, here are the steps to accomplishing those goals. And that's in the dashboard as they re- login. And the thing that we're starting to do now is that okay, that started a process of us learning that, okay. We're not actually going to be using that anymore. It really just revealed to us that we need to be segmenting the product, right? That we need to have different versions of Hubstaff for people to be marketed to because people didn't know what it was that they needed to be choosing. So I think one of the things that you need to be learning is, even going into that metacognitive space above even a customer success side of things. But to say, okay, what is coming in the door from marketing? And what can we actually deliver with the product as it is? And kind of having that layer of insight, you can use your end product data. We've been talking about the gamification, or reflecting back, giving the Success Snapshot type of thing. You can see, okay. This might mean some things for people outside of the customer success group. When we say, okay. People don't know what things to select when they come into the door to talk to us. Okay. Well, that means that we need to have a different kind of communication happening in the marketing side. And on the flip side, what are the dots we're trying to connect to on the product side? So I just wanted to say, okay, there's that other kind of thinking about, instead of thinking in as well to be done in this process of thinking about in product communication.

Jeff: Yeah. No, I think Brian and I touched on that a little bit just in our little one- on- one conversation as well. Thinking about how are we almost... We were talking about Spotify your interview as such a big thing that probably blew up everybody's social media, right? So how do you kind of create those types of experiences? And so then, how are we not only kind of taking and making these experiences for customers, but then how are we kind of breaking that back down. And for our marketing and sales friends to be using, how can we start thinking about that? The other thing that we talked about a bunch too, and I think Melissa mentioned this a lot in her response. Is just around the personas, do we have the right people. This has to be kind of a personalized experience, it can't just be a one size fits all certainly. And if we can use the technology to do that, and that's going to be leveraging that there. So I appreciate that too. Evan, looks like you got your hand raised. You want to throw something in here?

Evan: Yeah, definitely. How's it going, everyone. Actually, I jumped in a little late, so I don't know if this has been said already. But I come from the product world, so I'm a PM kind of like on the other, I guess, side of the pond. So it's really cool and interesting to hear all these stories. I think one, to kind of bounce off of what Tyler said. So I used to work at an enablement company where we basically had admins, we had your sales reps, and your sales managers. And so I think one key thing to think about when we surface our product data is to segment them out, someone said by the user journeys. And what may be successful criteria for one may be the start of another one. So for example, admins would upload enablement material, or lessons, things like that. And they're actually not successful until the learners complete that, right? So their sort of checkpoint is, great, I've uploaded it, but what makes them a superhero at their position is when everyone kind of goes through it with 100% completion. So I think like the previous person said, being able to slice it in a different way to say, Hey, this specific functionality of the product is successful or has a successful KPI for X persona, but this Y persona may be something completely different. Just being cognizant of that is super important.

Jeff: Yeah. And I love the point you just mentioned in there too, of also having the different moments of value. We need to be able to articulate those and probably tell the story between them, right? If one's not happening, another one's not going to happen or vice versa. What's the relation between some of these data points that we're actually talking? I think sometimes that gets lost, right? The story of the data is just as important as the data itself.

Evan: Yeah. Totally.

Jeff: Awesome. Any other examples anybody want to throw out there? Just kind of thinking about surfacing product data, it doesn't have to be an app, but anything that you're doing, similar to what Melissa is doing trying to surface kind of maturity models or where people are in terms of product maturity. Where their metrics are trending, anything that you guys are sending out that's even just curious to put out there? I'll throw that out there just for a minute, and then might jump into the next question we have here. Going once, twice. All right. We'll... Oh, go ahead, Sean. Oh, you're on mute. Sorry.

Sean: I unmuted myself. Looks like someone muted me again. Anyways. Hey, guys. Hey, Jeff. It came up in the questions and I just shared a brief comment around something that I was able to do at a previous company where I was searching for a tool, but also had very limited resources at the time. And ended up using some limited usage data we had in our data warehouse and built some dashboards. Obviously, none of that enabled proactive automation, but had created some templates in Mixmax that our CSMs were able to use to reach out to customers based on how they wanted to prioritize their portfolio in our dashboard. So I'm actually curious to hear, my guess is there are a lot of other folks that also maybe have other priorities or limited budgets, other creative avenues, folks have pursued where maybe Pando would have been the ideal goal to shoot for, but you had to maybe settle for something more cost effective in the interim.

Jeff: Yeah, I would imagine there's probably going to be a litany of things going off in the chat window. I'm hoping that people listen out some solutions or ways that they've had to get creative. I was on a call the other day where somebody said," Excel is the tool that still keeps on kicking." Somebody is going to mention it, I'm sure in some form or fashion. But yeah, I think that's such a good point, Sean. Not only do we have the right solutions, but also how do we work within the solutions we have already? I know that's something that we're always thinking about right now too. We've already got some marketing automation software, we leverage Gainsight, we've got Pando. So we've kind of got a number of tools that we can leverage, but how are we just thinking about that Excel will live on forever. Of course, I love it. Well, maybe the last question we'll dive into and talk about here a little bit is just, how are you creating more seamless experiences to other platforms? So again, I think us being a community software, this is a selfish question because we've got a community, we have an Academy for training, we've got support, we've got a knowledge base. And so I'm curious if you're trying to bring those experiences together kind of in product as well. I know Pando obviously has resource center, which can pull in a ton of things into kind of the admin experience that becomes beneficial. But I think one of the things that we're always trying to learn from our customers about, and here is one thing we don't want to hear, right? It's disparate experiences. I feel like I have to go to different sites. I don't know where to go. And so I'm curious how you all maybe are solving that challenge as well. Kind of bringing together all the resources to bear for customers and trying to create some seamless experiences. And if there's something that you guys are leveraging would be fun to learn about here for the next couple minutes. And I might call on-

Melissa: I would love Adam to... I'd love to hear from you on what you did at Optiverse, because I think that was such a seamless experience across four different platforms. If you could share, that'd be awesome.

Adam: Oh, because you got called on, now you want me to get called on too? No, that's great. I love it. Like a true training facilitator. Hi everyone. My name is Adam Avramescu, and I lead enterprise customer education at Slack. Previously I've built up the customer education teams at Optimizely and Checker. So what Melissa is referring to is specifically the work that we did at Optimizely back in the day. Where we saw this exact problem where our customers learning resources were all over the place. We had education sprawl. And so while we had originally built up a knowledge base and that was getting incredible SEO. In fact, sometimes it was outranking our corporate side in terms of leads generated, which was really cool in a way, but also not necessarily always an appropriate experience for the customer. We started to branch out and then we had a learning site which eventually moved on to a customer learning management system. We had a community which was hosted in Lithium, and we realized we needed to pull all of these pieces together and make it a seamless, single paying experience with the customer. So we ended up building a site called Optiverse, which was essentially a kind of a federated landing page that had kind of the top content and articles for the customer from each of those different sites. And some people took that browse first approach, but we also wanted to make sure that it was appropriate for a search first approach. So we used kind of a custom solar search bar at the top that federated results from each of those different properties into the same search. So that it made it really easy for customers both to see at a glance what was available to them in terms of learning and help and community, which are all fundamentally related to each other, but also that they could search when they were looking for something specific. Now, the one thing I would add on to that is, you can build the nicest landing page in the world, with the nicest federated search in the world. And that's still not how a lot of people are actually finding your content. So as we continued looking at our analytics, and as we continue talking to our customers, we realized there were two places that we have to continue to optimize for. One is organic search. So our SEO efforts became more important, even though we had this property called Optiverse that made it really simple for our customer to just go and land somewhere and find the content. We still had to really think about how they were searching for things in Google, because more people are still going to use Google and whatever custom federated search you come up with. The second one was people coming from within the product. A lot of people don't know to search for something or to go to Optiverse until they've actually had some experience using the product. So we were actually very early users of Pando. In fact, I was saying in our small group that our first account manager at Pando was one of their co- founders, they've grown a lot since then. But we used Pando to essentially strip out our old in product onboarding and replace it with one that was less of a one and done, and a little bit more reactive to steps the customer was taking during their onboarding journey, and also hit some of the key points beyond just a product tour that we knew would bring customers to first value. So I can stop there for a moment. I can answer other questions, but that's what we did.

Jeff: That was good. Damian had a question said, did you build Optiverse in house or leverage something off the shelf, like a Lifeway or Coveo in terms of the federated search part, especially? I think that is what Damien is mentioning.

Adam: Yeah. And we had actually looked at a few federated search providers. At least at the time, the technology was not where we wanted it to be in terms of user experience versus price. So we ended up actually working with an agency called Grazitti Interactive, to build a custom solar search on top of the site. And the rest of it was essentially front- end dev built on a custom Lithium page, although it could have been any of the platforms that hosted it. That then linked to the other properties. And using CSS in front end dev, we were able to build essentially the same top navigation, and the same federated search across each of the different sites. And eventually we added a sidebar, but it was essentially just using the same front end dev across all of those different properties, even though one was being hosted in an LMS platform, one was being hosted in Zendesk. One was being hosted in Lithium.

Jeff: Yeah. At least create the illusion of one seamless experience, even if nothing else, which is even part of the challenge. And then Chad had a question," Have you used Pando's permalinks function?"

Speaker 9: Chad, can you give me a little bit more detail on that or remind me what that is. It's been a while since we were using Pando.

Chad: The problem I'm running into is there's a couple of cooks in the Pando kitchen. And we had a lot of new features and company news. So what happened is message overload between Pando and Intercom when new users came in. And right now, my understanding is Pando can only create limited views based on what it knows. So a segment you told it or an individual user and action, but I've got folks coming on and waves of onboarding. And so what I'm trying to do is use permalinks in an onboarding nurture emails. So when they click on it and get brought into the product, they're also brought to just a specific guide that's not built off of rules about how long you've been in there and how you've done other things. But I know they're going to get the guide that makes them do that one product task when they click it from the email. So that's what I'm trying to build right now. I just wasn't sure if you've had experience with it.

Adam: That's a really good question. I don't remember. We didn't use that at first. I have a vague memory that we may have added it into our initial CS nurture emails closer to the end of my time there. But really, the way that we were handling it first was we were doing it based on the triggers within the product. Where when a customer would first engage with a feature that we knew would drive value, we would pop up the modal related to it. But we had built a welcome space. I mean, it was similar to an Intercom widget at the time where we were essentially using it as the onboarding checklist. And that was based on a methodology that we developed, which was the six steps to learn Optimizely

Jeff: Awesome.

Adam: Thank you.

Jeff: Man, Adam. You seem like you're going to be somebody we'll come ask more questions to. So crosstalk

Adam: That I did write a book on customer education. It's called customer education. You can find it on Amazon.

Jeff: Perfect. That's the best plug ever. I love that. I wrote a book about what we're talking about right now. So it seems relevant. I appreciate Melissa calling it out too. She's getting back at you. Chris Benson too, mentioned Grazitti now has enterprise search. I know we're pretty familiar with Grazitti as well, they do great work. Awesome. Well, I know we're about... We've got some time left if there's any other questions or things that people are thinking about. But in terms of things that I've just picked up or learned today, again, talking about the onboarding experience sounds like there's a ton that people are leveraging around introducing to community, kind of a new community for our new users to get onboarded too, to work with one another kind of similar cohort. Other people talked about using tools, obviously for some of the guided onboarding experiences, trying to find ways that you can leverage data to see where they are if they're behind. Talking about first time to value, had a couple of the things just around surfacing customer insights. So learning from Melissa and some of what she's been able to pull in terms of data sources together, putting together that kind of maturity model looking at where customers are. It seems like a really big hit for people here as well. And then the last is just learning from Adam here about trying to create cohesive experiences across these platforms that you have, if you can, how can we create a similar headers, footers, federated search? How do you create that illusion of similar experiences, even though it's going to be hosted in different places? So I think there's a lot that I've just written down here in notes. I appreciate everybody joining and coming to do this. I'm probably going to have something like this again here pretty soon because we're going through... Maybe just to give some broader context, we're going through right now and trying to do pretty much all of these things that we've talked about. So just trying to create more seamless experiences between our community of support in our education. And then at the same time, we've just got a big ability. We've got Pando. We bought it for a number of years, haven't really leveraged it fully. And so I think there's just a ton of opportunity for us to drive a lot of this stuff in product. And so I appreciate everybody sharing some insights and sharing some experiences in the past has been beneficial for me. And I appreciate Adam, Melissa, Chad, Sean, others who joined in and came off mute to help us talk through this. And we'll hope to do this again soon.

Speaker 10: Hey guys, thanks so much for taking the time to listen to the Gain, Grow, Retain Podcast. If you liked what you heard, please take a moment and share the podcast with your friends and colleagues and subscribe. We really appreciate it. Talk to you soon.

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