Diving Into Customer Marketing w/ Gal Biran

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This is a podcast episode titled, Diving Into Customer Marketing w/ Gal Biran. The summary for this episode is: <p>This week, Gal Biran joins us to talk discuss the ins and outs of Customer Marketing!</p><p><br></p><p>If you want to join the discussion with thousands of other customer success leaders, join Gain Grow Retain: <a href="http://gaingrowretain.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://gaingrowretain.com/</a></p><p><br></p><p>This podcast is brought to you by Jay Nathan and Jeff Breunsbach...</p><p><br></p><p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaynathan/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Jay Nathan LinkedIn</a></p><p><br></p><p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffreybreunsbach" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Jeff Breunsbach LinkedIn</a></p>
What is Crowdvocate
01:00 MIN
Tap In To the Company Objectives
00:48 MIN
Don't Overload Yourself
00:49 MIN
Baseline of Advocacy
00:46 MIN
Common Mistakes to Avoid
00:49 MIN

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Gain Grow Retain podcast, powered by Higher Logic.

Jeff Breunsbach: We're back with another episode Gain Grow Retain. And today we've got Gal Biran who is the Founder and CEO of a company called Crowdvocate. So Gal, appreciate you joining us today and hopping on the phone.

Gal Biran: Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to dive into customer marketing.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start off with a hard question. And I like to throw people for a loop a little bit. So if you had to pick one superhero that you like, that you assimilate to, that you would want their super powers, what would that be? Who would that be or what superpowers would you take?

Gal Biran: Oh, dear. I'll Gal Gadot just because we have a similar name and we're both from Israel and she's Wonder Woman and strong, smart, beautiful, successful, and whatnot. I think her superpower is her actual wits, all the risks comes with the job. But I think that's what I love about her. And even in her personality, she's pretty cool.

Jeff Breunsbach: I like it.

Gal Biran: So, I'll go with Gal.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah, that's a good one. I like to start with some interesting questions to hopefully get out of the way some personal anecdotes and get into some other stuff. But tell us a little bit about Crowdvocate and how you came up that, what you guys are doing over there, and then we'll dive into a couple of topics or questions here.

Gal Biran: Cool. Thank you. Crowdvocate is a customer marketing, an advocacy automation platform for B2B companies. We all know loyalty programs, advocacy from consumer world, Miles& More, whatever Starbucks rewards, whatever you want to call it. But B2B of course is a whole different game. And when you look at how can you run life cycle marketing through your existing customer base, how do you turn customers into advocates? How does all of that sit within the current tech stack and with marketing automation and with customer success. And kind of how all that, all those pieces pull together, that's what customer marketing is. I think it's the glue in a way. It's like being able to connect between marketing activities, sales activities, customer success activities, to more programmatic programs that actually go into your customers as a whole, but also as individuals along their life cycle and journey and understanding customers and reaching out to them at scale, but with very specific requests around their journey.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's been the evolution over the last couple of years where companies have started to realize how big of an opportunity this really is and putting focus and now putting this name, customer marketing, around it, at least in B2B SaaS. I think a couple of other ways that I think our audience thinks about this is tech touch or automation, when you start thinking about your segmentation models, when people start talking about," I've got a long tail of customers. I need to put technology and automation." And I think that's also evolving, which is good because I think people are realizing it's got to be more than just technology that fits in there. There actually has to be strategy, insight, and forethought of not only are we going to be pushing out messages and what are the mediums we're doing that, but at the same time, we actually need to have valuable messages. And then we need to understand how this is impacting that customer's journey. So I'm curious if you've seen a similar evolution in terms of people in the B2B SaaS world embracing customer marketing more and starting to realize how big of an opportunity this can really be?

Gal Biran: Yeah, definitely. We've been around for three years now and when we started, I would look, at the end of the day, just to look at jobs and whatnot in customer marketing advocacy. And there were a few jobs here and there. But today, there are thousands of them. We compare it demand generation or acquisition jobs, again in marketing, of course, customer success is a bit of a different domain. But there's thousands of jobs. Every day, I see a few new jobs around customer marketing, customer advocacy references. And I think COVID even kind of expedited it in a way, because we are in a evermore digital reality and evermore need to engage customers at scale and understand their journey and generate revenue from your existing customers and not just relying on bringing more and more new customers all the time. So we definitely see a strong trend around that in the market.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah. I think another evolution that we've noticed as well is that I feel like in the past, as a consumer yourself, as a buyer, you probably get hundreds, if not thousands of emails each year from all these different platforms that you're working with or from these consumer companies that you buy from. And so I think the other evolution that we're seeing, and I think that is a natural progression as you start to combine customer marketing, customer success, community and education, it starts to really, all of these things and these experiences start to fuse together. And being able to articulate some of those messages across different platforms is, I think, becoming more critical as well. Because again, I don't think open rates are probably increasing over time. And so becoming a little bit more creative, how are you getting the message to your customers? And so I think the path you were going down about the life cycle of a customer, understanding where they are, how are we impacting them, and then not only delivering a message via email, but what are the other mediums and channels that you have? And so I'm curious from your standpoint too, what are some of the other channels or mediums or ways that you feel like companies are actually reaching out to their customers on that life cycle to talk about advocacy, talk about the value that they're getting from the product? I'm curious if you've seen any creative ways that companies are doing that.

Gal Biran: Yeah, sure. First of all, I think one thing to understand is that in B2B, it definitely has to be more contextual. If I take of the consumer world, it's more one- offs right? I bought a Nike shoe, now they want me to give a review and maybe I could get Nike badge or a star. And if I buy enough coffees, I'll get a free Starbucks or whatnot. But in B2B, because the journey is longer and there's so many other touch points and people won't necessarily do things just for another$ 5 Starbucks coffee or whatnot, it has to be also more contextual. And you get context from understanding the persona, the account, the journey, et cetera. And then yes, the ability to basically reach out to them because I just had a call the other week with somebody who told me they have over 90 marketing systems. Of course, when you have so many systems, it's very hard to track it and it's very hard to communicate with customers. But being able to reach out to customers. So of course, by email, but then more so by in- app and pop- up messages within their journey. In the community, many times communities are disconnected from other type of activities. But why is that? Communities should actually be part of the user's journey. They should actually be part of the holistic understanding of your customer. In communities, even in events, virtual events make it easier to do digital engagement, digital platforms as well. So in-app messages, pop- up messages, text, Slack, people building on Slack with their customers. We've had requests in China for WhatsApp and WeChat and all these different kinds of chat messaging platforms. So you do see some kind of relationship between what people use as consumers, the ways they message as consumers with brand, versus what they do also in B2B. But definitely being able to reach out to them is part of their journey and all their touch points is a crucial, I think, to actually get conversion and get their attention.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah. I can tell you, we're in that same boat that you just mentioned about platforms and looking at just what do we use on a daily basis that we have to keep track of the customers, we're engaging with them. What are all the things that we have internally just to take care of, which is starting to become more and more and multiply. And I think the challenge that continues to happen and that we see is that the data is still stays so disparate. As much as people talk about bringing data together and making connections, it just is always so much harder than it seems or it should be. And so I'm curious, again kind of thinking, a lot of times the way we like to try and break it down for our audience is thinking about what are some of the first steps that you can take? What are some of the in Excel things that you can do before you go buy a platform? How can you start to define what do you actually need in the technology in the future? And so, from your standpoint of going down this customer marketing and advocacy route, what do you feel like customer success leaders or marketing leaders can be doing to even just get this off the ground and start to see," Hey, is this something that we need to be investing in over time?" So what's that first step you feel like people can take?

Gal Biran: Yeah. I always say the first step is actually understanding your company's objectives. We've just started 2021. If your objective this year is for example, to increase, I don't know, referrals, right, or revenue or increase references because you're going more to the enterprise market and you need more references from your customers, or maybe you need more reviews, or maybe you need whatever upsell. First inaudible, as a company, what are the objectives that the company has, and that are not really clear how you reach those at scale, or how do you leverage, tap into your customer base to reach those at scale? And then you just map two, three objectives that make sense to you and makes sense to the company because that's how you get buy- in. Then you can come and say, " Okay, I know that upsell or whatever referrals or reviews or one of our core strategic objectives for this year or this quarter, I know that we need to 10X that or scale that." It's very hard to do that with Excel and email or spreadsheet and email. So let's kind of think we have the customer base, we know we want to do with them, now the question is how. So first thing is just tapping into your company's objectives for the year and trying to kind of sort out three to five objectives that customer base can help you win ground with. Then think about how do we make that happen? How do we make our customers help us win those areas, those objectives, with or without a platform? Probably, when you start going into the details, we see, okay, we have one of our customers with our inaudible, they have 100 references a month. When you reach that level of 100 reference calls a month, it's very hard to maintain it with a spreadsheet and an email, which is what they've been doing for a while. And you actually start, if you will, slowing down deals, slowing down the business, because you can't move enough the pace, your customers would be mad. The second thing would be after I map those objectives, trying to see in which places within those objectives we're doing fine, or we have the resources, or we kind of got it figured and in which places we're actually realizing that, I'm not sure I can say that on a podcast, but we're screwed and we actually need to figure out a different tactic, a different strategy, maybe a different tool to get that done.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah. I think the first part too, going back to mapping objectives, I think people sometimes kind of gloss over that," Is this really becoming a priority in the business this year? Are you going to get some buy- in?" And trying to understand that first and foremost. The other thing that I think we've started to take a look at just in early days as well, we're certainly getting down a path of having to build advocates and getting into tracking and measurement in some more sophisticated ways. But one of the early things that we tried to do was just even start with an Excel sheet of who are our customers and who do we know are having positive experiences right now, just even knowing who they are. Have they bought more from us recently? Are they having positive outcomes with our tool or system? And so I even think sometimes people gloss over that, of looking at your successful customers and trying to even just identify, inside of your customer base right now, who's having a good time, who's not, who's having positive outcomes. And then can I even start to look at maybe attributes of those companies that start to help me articulate," Hey, these types of companies, maybe it's the industry they're in, maybe it's the size of company they are, the type of users or the amount of users they might have in the product. So some of these things might be able to help us describe and look for future ones. But I think even looking at that in an Excel sheet was really valuable for us to get our hands around that and understand how many do we have right now, what's the type of way we want to reach out to them. But I think it fits in between your points or maybe even just after your second point there, which is identifying what the opportunities are inside the business, identifying where your gaps are potentially, and then trying to understand even within those gaps, what's the process that you'd even want to implement before you even go look at technology.

Gal Biran: Definitely. And it varies between company sizes. Some companies, you're right, would work. Many companies would work with that spread sheet, and just have a list of all the people that are advocates, potential advocates, known advocates, willingful. And maybe they'd ask CSMs to let them help them know who those are. Maybe they ask sales, maybe they just look at some data. Of course, that's part of what companies can do to start the whole process. I think the interesting part is that some companies, they even have that to begin with, but the problem is that it's very much, I would call it, a moment in time. So at this time, their MPS is high, this time they're a happy customer, this time they just upsell the renewal or whatnot. But what does that tell us about them two months from now, three months from now? Not too much. And if somebody, for example, is in your reference pool and you need them on a call. They joined the reference pool now, and right now they're super happy, but you need them on a call in three months time, maybe they're still super happy, maybe they're not.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah, yeah.

Gal Biran: That's where it becomes, I think again, it goes back to what are you trying to achieve and just make sure that those things you can manage. Another tip would be not to overload yourself. You see sometimes a team of one. So the company said," Okay, we're going bold on customer marketing or advocacy. We're going to have one person full- time, an employee dedicated for that role." And then they expect that one person to do everything, like manage references and reviews and customer stories and what not. And it's really impossible. If it's a small team, if you're just starting, figure out those two, three initiatives that you want to accelerate, instead of just going spread on the whole thing, but not managing anything correctly. But definitely starting with that, that spreadsheet, that agreed list of potential advocates and trying to see if there's any common attributes between them is a great start for sure, if you have nothing at all to begin with. And there's always a list. You start asking your salespeople, you'll find out that they have people that they use for references for years now, of course.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah.

Gal Biran: You start asking customer success, and you'll find that each one has a list of some customers they always feel comfortable to reach out to. You'll find out that everybody has their shortlist of two to three, four people, you just need to aggregate all those people to one list and suddenly you have 40.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah. Yeah. The other part that you were talking about, that I keep thinking and going back to, is also this idea of just gaining momentum inside the organization. And I feel like to your point, if you go too thin and too broad and try and do too much at one time, you lose momentum because you're trying to juggle too many balls in the air at one time. And then your team doesn't know which one to focus on and it goes back to your whole point of defining some of the initiatives and the objectives. And so I think about that a lot, like how can you go really deep on two or three and get momentum and make it really easy for your other teammates to help you along that path? Right? I was part of a company one time and we had a 10 to 12 step process to help define who an advocate was. And in my mind, looking at that process, it just stifled me already because I was like," I don't want to go through these 10 steps that I have to fill all this information and do all these things." And so before we even got off the ground, it was like, we lost momentum on the idea. And it goes back, I think, to the point you were making, which is sitting with two or three key focuses, trying to understand how do we just get from 0.0 to 0.1, just to try and get it off the ground and get momentum with all the teams that we have in place. So I think about that a lot, of how do you not stifle momentum when you start thinking about introducing these types of programs internally?

Gal Biran: Yeah, I totally agree. So one thing would be, of course, don't make them cumbersome. Again, we can take something that many people probably know is a process, which is a reference call, and then suddenly if you have to have, you build this endless workflow where we need to nominate people for a reference, but they only have to meet this type of criteria. Then whenever they go on a reference call, we need five different people to approve the fact they can actually think that call right now. Then after, when they even were approved to take that call, we need this and that steps to happen to actually set that call. If somebody's creating so cumbersome processes that it's never going to work, not for the salespeople, they just don't have the time to waste on all these processes when they're on a deal. And not for the customer himself, or even for the internal people like customer success to work on. Sometimes from wanting so much to protect the customer and create the perfect process and be whatever, may be great reasons, but you, I don't know, washing away the baby with the water or whatnot.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah.

Gal Biran: It should be simple. You might make mistakes. Okay, everybody does. But keep it simple, start rolling it out and learn as you go. Maybe you need another approval step, fine. Maybe you need a better qualification to who's an advocate and who isn't, because after you ran it for two months, you've figured out that a few of them didn't fit, fine. But don't over complicate it. In the beginning, actually oversimplify it in the beginning and then add thresholds if you need, going on.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah. And I think the other thing that, over my career I've gotten more comfortable with, is just the honesty and transparency you can actually take with some of your customers who are going into that program, right? Saying," Hey, we're starting this advocacy program and my objective is to use your time as most effective as possible. And we're not going to get it right, right off the bat and I know that. And so I want you to be comfortable that, but again, know that we're on the same page here, that I really value your time. I value that you're doing this for our customers or for our potential customers. And so I want you to give us feedback so that we can improve this along the way, because at the end of the day, nobody wants to waste anybody's time in doing this." And to your point, we want to make sure we've got good advocates who are willing to reference and do all these things, but also setting the expectation up front to say," Hey, this is something that we're just starting as a company and you're going to go through some lumps with us," but setting that expectation up front, because I think I've seen, in other cases, I've actually been part of some reference programs and referral programs before where they didn't really prepare me for that. And halfway through, I'm feeling," Man, you're kind of wasting my time." I'm talking with prospects that aren't even at the stage that I would really want to talk to somebody at. They're still deciding which vendors are in their selection process and all these other stages that maybe don't matter to me. And so I think just that honesty and transparency can be really valuable for that relationship that you're trying to continue establishing, building credibility, all those things down the line.

Gal Biran: Definitely. For me, the baseline of advocacy is understanding that your customer can become your partner. That's what we came into this to begin with. And if you understand that your customer could be your partner, no matter their title, no matter whatever, the whole idea is getting feedback from them. It's not just about asking them to do it stuff. It's about also generating value for them, giving them the ability to share their voice and whatnot. So of course, you have to when you roll out, be transparent with them and ask them," Guys, let us know what works for you and what doesn't. Let us know where we got it right and where we should actually tweak it a bit." The whole program is built on feedback, same way you want product feedback and you want service feedback, you definitely want feedback on your different programs. Maybe the process is wrong. Maybe the rewards don't make any sense to them. Maybe they're polled, like you said, in the wrong times or in the wrong ways and the matching doesn't really work. Maybe they just didn't get the value, and once you iterate the value better and see that. Definitely be sure to ask people all the time, tell them," Hey, this is our first program or whatever, our rebound program. You're advocates, part of being advocates is giving us feedback. Definitely tell us everything we need to improve and we'll try to do our best that it works great for us and for you."

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah. One area I'm curious to get your thought about too, is I think people's natural inclination is to jump to a monetary benefit or incentive, right? Like," Hey, if you're part of our advocacy program." I think the easiest thing to think about is monetary retribution, so to speak, for doing this for us. And so I'm curious from your standpoint though, what are other ways that people can be thinking about the value for a customer to become an advocate for us and to partake in some of these situations, scenarios, partake in some of these phone calls, reference calls, giving us feedback, doing things in the community, other things that can be part of that? So I'm curious if there's a couple that come to mind for you that people maybe overlook when thinking about some of the benefits that could come?

Gal Biran: Yeah, definitely. So first of all, I would even ask my advocates what could be valuable for them. But if you talk about what companies or really new programs, creative companies. One thing is for example, aligning on co- marketing. So if you're looking at C- level type of advocacy, right, having people who are more senior speak in events, do a customer story, a customer whatnot, you basically need to reposition the whole thing. Again, we've talked about partnership and saying," Hey, we're partnering on building your brand and building our brand together. We're also going to do co- marketing." So this whole advocacy program is really about building both brands together and building your, let's say Joe Schmoe, whatever, CEO, building your personal brand while we do so. He or she don't care about, again, a gift card, they care about building their brand as a company and their personal brand as an individual. That would be one way of looking at it. Just really building a work plan for the next three months, six months, even a year, of co- marketing partnership activities we do together, and you're right, at the end, it's the customer story or a testimonial. But that customer story or that testimonial, if it gets a lot of PR, social amplification, whatnot, it also builds both that company's brand and that person's brand as well as you as a vendor. So that's one thing. The other thing is, for example, even helping them with things that are relevant to your services. So instead of giving them, again, a gift card or some kind of monetary reward, you can say," Okay, we have this training and certification. You can get that for free," or" We have an annual event." We don't do those so much in the past year, but" We have an annual event, you can get a free pass to that or a VIP pass to that," or whatever. You could have them basically network. For example, you could say,"Because you're in this, it's like a community which the big value of community is networking," but then you think it even, if you will, to an even higher level, and you say," We're going to connect you with not the entire customer base, not the entire community, but only the whatever, 100 people in your title, in your role, in your country," or in your whatever, product line. There's a lot of different values that could be given to advocates. Have a speak with our CEO once a year or with our whatever, head of product. You need to ask them, but there's so many things that you'd rather give than a gift card. In some cases, a gift card is fine. Don't misunderstand me, but I'm just saying, or swag or whatever.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah, yeah. I like the point that you just made, the first one, which is just ask, because I think a lot of times, again, people start to thinking about scaling programs and scaling programs tends to mean just, I don't want to say watering everything down, but it just means that you're starting to give similar experiences to many people and making some large generalizations. And so I think even just asking," What's going to be important to you?" And then how can we go, maybe not reformat the entire program, right, but maybe we've got a couple of different levers that we can pull inside of the program that make more sense for you, like you said. The second thing I loved was personal brand. This is something that we've spent time on, Jay and I, over the last year, is building our personal brand and how that can move with you, right? Building your own personal brand is kind of a safety net in your career because it's like that, the connections you make, the notoriety, the content that's out there, that stuff lives on for so long that it's going to follow you to the next company you go work at or to getting an advisor position or doing whatever you want to do in your life. That will carry so much weight. And then the third point I love too, which is a lot of times when you think about advocacy programs, it's" Hey, do a reference call for us" or" Hey, come speak at our conference or come speak at X, Y, and Z." But almost reversing that to say," Hey, we want your business also to get benefit out of this too." Right? If we're building our brand, as a business, then your business should be wanting to do that as well. And if we actually have a partnership here, this actually works in a harmonious way where we both believe in what we're doing, what each other's businesses are doing, and believe in this partnership. This is going to be something that we're going to do for years. So I love that point too. The last last area I wanted to dive into, when you think about this is, and we've maybe skirted around it a little bit, but what is the number one faux pas or what is the number one thing that you see people just make a mistake on right out of the gate when they start thinking about customer marketing or advocacy programs? Is there anything that you feel is a common mistake that people or organizations make when they're trying to get this off the ground and can you help our audience avoid what you think that mistake is, if you've seen something that's similar across the industry?

Gal Biran: There's a few mistakes. And I think it really differs between the maturity level of the company, the size of the company. So I'll name a few things that we see. I think one thing is the whole issue of ownership. I'm not a fan of ownership or who owns the customer or whatnot. But I think generally speaking, somebody has to manage customer advocacy. I don't even care if they sit under marketing or under customer success or whatever, product, anywhere, I don't care. They can sit under the R& D department. But seriously, having somebody that knows that that's her job or his job, having somebody that understands that they are now the people who need to brainstorm this with the customers, brainstorm this with internal stakeholders in the company, and really be able to build the program and maintain it. That's one thing. When you get companies that say," You know what? Somebody in customer success is going to own that 5% of it, and then somebody is going to own that other 7% of it. And then product team is going to own that 11% of it." It doesn't work. Two things things happen. Number one, the customers get overloaded because every stakeholder is going to ask the same customers a different question. And number two, the programs don't align. It doesn't make sense. Think about Miles& More, whatever, frequent flyer programs, whatnot, at the end of the day, the more you do stuff, you're positioned in different places. But if these are disconnected programs, disconnected initiatives by different departments, you don't gain those miles. You gain separate miles from different places. So maybe you can fly 20 times between, I don't know, New York and Boston, but you're never going to get that flight to Europe or whatnot. It doesn't make sense. Right?

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah.

Gal Biran: Join them together. So that that's one thing. I would definitely say find or agree on some departments, some person who owns it and looks at the bigger picture. The second thing I would say is it's very important to tie it to revenue metrics. We've seen companies historically look at life metrics, if you will. So like, okay, how many advocates do we have? What's that even mean? Maybe you have 5, 000 advocates, but they're not doing anything. So what makes them an advocate to begin with? Trying to tie it to metrics that actually measure the value of what they do through the company, and eventually to revenue, because that's what companies care about at the end of the day.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yep.

Gal Biran: Why is that so important? Number one, because that's the only way you're going to get management buy- in and executive buy-in. Number two, that's the way to get budgets and grow the team. Number three, because it really makes sense. You're not building advocacy for the sake of advocacy. You're building advocacy to support business objectives, whatever they are. And those business objectives are most likely aligned with some revenue oriented goals. And this is again, in marketing today, it's changing, but when it sits under marketing, in the past marketing, yeah, but we've had so-and- so number of whatever, email opens and clicks and whatnot. And who cares. And marketing has totally evolved and much more mature today, and it measures attributes it measures the shit out of everything. There's too much. At the end of the day, if you can't show that all this program is somehow associated with business goals and revenue, then it's not going to be a sustainable program in your company. So that's another thing to do. I'd say the last thing is, we talked about it, but just to make sure that we anchor that, talk to your customers about it. Don't think that you know the program, don't think that a consultant necessarily knows all the answers. Really, the person who knows the answers is your customers, because it's your domain, your industry, your product, your customers. Different roles have different objectives. C level people might have their objectives, their kind of motivation and there are things they're willing to do. Administrators, power users, have different objectives, different things that you can do. Being able to actually talk to your customers and build a program with them is a great way to make sure that you're actually going to make it successful.

Jeff Breunsbach: Yeah. Man, those are three good ones. And I actually have nothing to add to those because I think those are good tactical manageable things that people can be looking out for across this life cycle of trying to start advocacy and customer marketing and trying to get it off the ground. So Gal, this has been awesome. I appreciate you coming on. If people wanted to find you or find your company, where's the easiest place to go do that?

Gal Biran: So crowdvocate. com, pretty easy to find us. And LinkedIn, I'm always there, too much, my time I spend over there probably. And yeah, I'll give out my email, Gal. Biran @ crowdvocate. com so they can always reach out.

Jeff Breunsbach: Awesome. Well, appreciate you coming on today and we'll have to do this again here in the near future and get some more discussion going around this topic because I know it's pretty frequent in our community in Gain Grow Retain, our leaders are starting to think about this more and more. And like you said, I think it's been an evolution, but I think this last year has really forced the mechanism and making sure our leaky bucket is taken care of, making sure that we're finding those advocates in the bucket and how we're attracting new ones. So appreciate the time, and we'll do this again soon.

Gal Biran: Thank you. I love the community and all the podcast and the content you're spreading out. So keep the good work.

Jeff Breunsbach: Awesome. Thank you. Hey guys, thanks so much for taking the time to listen to the Gain Grow Retain Podcast. If you liked what you heard, please take a moment and share the podcast with your friends and colleagues and subscribe. We really appreciate it. Talk to you soon.


This week, Gal Biran joins us to talk discuss the ins and outs of Customer Marketing!

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